You know, in a lot of these discussions I see "[Class] does a lot of damage" or "[Class] does the most damage" or "[Class] doesn't do enough damage." And most people are speaking from personal experience, which is heavily influenced by books available, player skill, random chance, GM whimsy, dice rolls, and the winds of fate. In order to have a common ground to discuss, let's establish a simple baseline for how much each class is expected to do with a full attack in one round.
To start, we'll need a standardized baseline for all the characters:
Level 10, since pretty much all classes are expected to have come into their own by then, plus it's a good round number. If you don't think this is a good level to use, feel free to redo the math for some other level; I know level 10 is arbitrary and any other level from about 4 on would work just as well.
Elite array. While I know most people play with more forgiving point-buys or rolling schemes, this is a baseline. The CR system was originally based around players using elite array or a comparable point buy.
Standard wealth by level in magic items, but no magic items limited on a per-day or consumable basis.
Magic items will be prioritized for doing damage without adversely affecting survivability. Most classes will have a +3 weapon (or 2 +2 weapons or a +2 amulet of mighty fists), a +4 stat booster to their damage-increasing stat, and miscellaneous other items. Most classes will also have boring magical weapons, favoring plain bonuses over fiery or holy or whatnot; this is because it's almost always better DPR and it makes my life easier. Everyone will also have a Heward's Handy Haversack because, seriously, they are level 10 characters.
The most optimal build of each class. If multiple optimal builds are possible (e.g. archery and another style), then each style will be a separate entry. If a build is genuinely more optimal by sacrificing DPR for some other benefit, then the sacrifice will be made. For example, rogues will use Crippling Strike and not Bleeding Strike. With that in mind, feel free to nit-pick the build of any entrant. The idea is that each example is as optimal as possible.
We'll also need a standard for the competition. This standard is meant to best simulate typical combat circumstances, when damage is most on the line.
Target AC of 24. This is the standard for AC at CR 10, according to the Bestiary monster building guidelines.
A single full attack. Classes with significant limited abilities, be they situational ones (favored enemy, sneak attack) or limited on a per-day basis (smite, Quickened Divine Favor), will have their damage figured out both with and without those limited abilities.
No class will be allowed any in-combat rounds to set up. Buffs are part of your baseline if you can apply them yourself, and they either have a duration of 10 min/level or longer or can be applied as a swift/immediate/free action.
The value in DPR of a +1 to hit, a +1 damage, and an additional full-BAB attack will be figured out for each class. Some classes benefit more from one type of buff over another.
The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
Class Abilities:
Evasion
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Finesse Rogue, Weapon Training, Surprise Attack, some other stuff
Crippling Strike
Other non-relevant stuff
Gear:
Two +2 shortswords
+2 mithral shirt
Belt of whatever PF calls the dex belt +4
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Cloak of Resistance +2
Ring of Protection +1
Handy Haversack
Masterwork shortbow
2800 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
Before I do any math, I want to make clear up front that this is not intended as a tier list, a how-to-play guide, or a value judgement on the utility of each of these classes (as most of them do other things than damage). It's just to get a good baseline on how much damage a character of this level will typically do, so "a lot of damage" can be something other than a gut call.
Gear:
Two +2 shortswords
+2 mithral shirt
Belt of whatever PF calls the dex belt +4
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Cloak of Resistance +2
Ring of Protection +1
Handy Haversack
Masterwork shortbow
2800 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
His attack routine is:
+2 shortswords +14/+14/+9/+9, d6+4 dmg (19-20/x2), adding 5d6 damage and 2 str damage on a sneak attack
His average damage per round without sneak attack is ~15.90. (Note that Power Attack lowers his DPR against this target.) Without sneak attack, a +1 to hit is worth 1.70 DPR, a +1 to damage is worth 1.70 DPR, and an additional attack is worth ~4.68 DPR.
With sneak attack, it is ~45.65, with an average of 3.4 str damage from Crippling Attack. With sneak attack, a +1 to hit is worth 5.37 DPR, a +1 to damage is worth 1.70 DPR, and an additional attack is worth ~14.77 DPR. (Note that most sneak attacking rogues will also be flanking, and the +2 to hit from flanking increases their DPR to ~56.39.)
To start this off, let's figure out the damage for a level 10 rogue who fights with a pair of shortswords.
Jack B. Nimble, human rogue 10
Quote:
** spoiler omitted **
His attack routine is:
+2 shortswords +14/+14/+9/+9, d6+4 dmg (19-20/x2), adding 5d6 damage and 2 str damage on a sneak attack
His average damage per round without sneak attack is ~15.90. (Note that Power Attack lowers his DPR against this target.) Without sneak attack, a +1 to hit is worth 1.70 DPR, a +1 to damage is...
If he is getting sneak attack he probably has a flanker so maybe he should have another +2 since it would show up in the game.
I'll take it your version of the Elite Array is 15,14,13,12,10,8 as opposed to the 15,14,12,11,10,8 that is the only one I see presented in the PFSRD?
I'm not sure where you see that, but if it's printed somewhere it needs a correction. Here is the PFSRD reference, and it's page 451 of the book.
15,14,13,12,10,8 is the elite array, always has been, and I was actually impressed when they significantly re-designed the point buy system without breaking it --
I'll take it your version of the Elite Array is 15,14,13,12,10,8 as opposed to the 15,14,12,11,10,8 that is the only one I see presented in the PFSRD?
I'm not sure where you see that, but if it's printed somewhere it needs a correction. Here is the PFSRD reference, and it's page 451 of the book.
15,14,13,12,10,8 is the elite array, always has been, and I was actually impressed when they significantly re-designed the point buy system without breaking it -- ** spoiler omitted **
Ahhh, there it is. I was searching the SRD for the query "Elite Array" and the only set of ability scores I could find tied to that search was under the monster creation section, using the slightly different set of numbers I posted above.
Let's go with a classic: 2h fighter. At this point, falchion is noticeably better than greatsword when he's power attacking and slightly worse the rest of the time, but since he's power attacking pretty much all the time he's going with the falchion. With two more base damage from buffs, conditions, etc., falchion pulls ahead all the time.
AC: 25 - Touch 14, Flatfooted 22 (+10 +1 full plate, +2 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, +1 Dodge)
Attacks: Falchion +23/+18, 2d4+16 dmg (15-20/x2)
Class Abilities:
Weapon Training +2 (heavy blades)
Weapon Training +1 (bows)
Armor Training 2
BAB: +10 CMB: +16 CMD: 28
Feats:
Weapon Focus (falchion)
Weapon Specialization (falchion)
Power Attack
Improved Critical (falchion)
Critical Focus
Improved Initiative
Iron Will
Improved Iron Will
Greater Weapon Focus (falchion)
Dodge
Lunge
Step Up
Skills:
Some stuff
Gear:
+3 falchion
Belt of +4 str
+1 full plate
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of Protection +1
1000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
His attack routine with Power Attack is:
+3 falchion +20/+15, 2d4+25 dmg (15-20/x2)
His average damage per round is 59.25. A +1 to hit is worth 3.90 DPR (actually slightly less because crits on the first attack are already confirming on a 2+), a +1 to damage is worth 1.71 DPR, and an additional attack is worth 34.95 DPR.
In case anyone was curious how good Critical Focus is, Critical Focus is a ~4.77% DPR increase (or 2.70 DPR). It get better the more damage you do and the more attacks you make, but reduces in effectiveness if you hit enemies on better than a 6+. It would be a ~6.37% DPR increase (or 3.60 DPR) on an enemy with AC 26 or better.
-edit- Dropping something like Improved Initiative for Exotic Weapon Proficiency (elven curve blade) and switching all his feats over to the curve blade increases his DPR to ~60.11.
Since I'm here and we've got fighters and TWFers, let's see how the TWF fighter fares. Kukris and starknives are better for him than shortswords (or bastard sword/shortsword) all the time at this point (albeit marginally).
Class Abilities:
Weapon Training +2 (light blades)
Weapon Training +1 (bows)
Armor Training 2
BAB: +10 CMB: +15 CMD: 28
Feats:
Weapon Focus (kukri)
Weapon Specialization (kukri)
Power Attack
Improved Critical (kukri)
Critical Focus
Two Weapon Fighting
Iron Will
Toughness
Greater Weapon Focus (kukri)
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Step Up
Skills:
Some stuff
Gear:
Two +2 kukris
Belt of +4 str
+1 full plate
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of Protection +1
2734 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
Since Power Attack is a damage increase, he uses it. His attack routine with Power Attack is:
A quick interjection while you're presumably statting up Rapidshot Red: this is approximately half of the primary-melee rating scheme I went through to get an idea of where the iron mage sat in relative power level. DPR vs. the monster creation chart was step one. Step two was exactly the inverse: canonically CR-appropriate DPR vs. the character.
The last bit was to divide each side's HP by the other side's DPR to get expected kill speeds, and then divide the character's expected rounds of survival by his expected rounds to kill. This number serves as the build's Tank Rating.
Since you're doing significantly more analysis of each build's damage output than I did (not to mention more builds), I wonder if you'd be interested in looking at the flip side too?
Since you're doing significantly more analysis of each build's damage output than I did (not to mention more builds), I wonder if you'd be interested in looking at the flip side too?
I don't think it would be very useful, since monster damage is really heterogenous. Hit up the monster creation chart, and multiply the high damage value times the character's chance to be hit by the high attack value. That is a quick and dirty monster-by-CR DPR value.
Just to knock out all of the fighter builds, here's Farshot Fallon. (Rapidshot Red is, naturally, a ranger.) Of course, she doesn't have Far Shot, that feat sucks.
Class Abilities:
Weapon Training +2 (bows)
Weapon Training +1 (heavy blades)
Armor Training 2
BAB: +10 CMB: +15 CMD: 28
Feats:
Weapon Focus (longbow)
Weapon Specialization (longbow)
Deadly Aim
Improved Critical (longbow)
Critical Focus
Point Blank Shot
Iron Will
Improved Iron Will
Greater Weapon Focus (longbow)
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Manyshot
Skills:
Some stuff
Gear:
+3 composite longbow (+2 str mod)
Belt of +4 dex
+1 full plate
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Masterwork greatsword
Ring of Protection +1
Lesser Bracers of Archery
800 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot are both damage increases, so Fallon uses both. Her attack routine with DA/RS is:
+3 longbow +19(x2)/+19/+14, d8+15 dmg (19-20/x3)
Her average damage per round is 68.25. A +1 to hit is worth ~4.49 DPR, a +1 to damage is worth 3.42 DPR, and an additional attack is worth 18.72 DPR. These numbers do not include Point Blank Shot.
Manyshot is crazy good. It's worth 15.60 DPR alone. Critical Focus, on the other hand, is only worth 2.34 DPR to Fallon, and could probably be replaced with a utility or melee feat.
This character is clearly mixed focus (he can mellee well, but still has nearly his full complement of spells and the feats to back up summoning as a significant secondary or even main strategy).
The Animal Companion alone puts him on par with other mellee classes.
His DPR is 28 without rakes and 45 if he does rake (and he gets three shots at grabbing).
The animal companion has 21 average damage and 35 if he rakes.
Their total DPR is 49 without rakes and 80.6 with rakes.
Adding one attack increases DPR by 10.
Adding +1 to hit increases DPR by 2.31 if he does not rake and 3.78 if he does.
Adding +1 to damage increases his damage 1.89 if he does not rake and 3.15 if he does.
If you apply the bonuses to both Dan and the animal companion you get:
One extra attack increases their DPR by 17.6
Adding +1 to hit gives 4.1 extra DPR without rakes and 6.72 DPR with rakes.
Adding +1 damage gives 3.78 extra DPR without rakes and 6.3 extra DPR with rakes.
Note: Both have PA for lower AC foes, but neither uses it against AC 24.
Gear:
Belt of +2 dex
Headband of +4 int
+1 chain shirt
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Masterwork longspear
Ring of protection +1
a bunch of miscellaneous consumables, and some other gear
---
I used an average target touch AC of 12, based on just eyeballing various CR 10 monsters; they ranged from 8 to 16 from what I saw.
I did three different calculations: at 10 feet (where a miss still does splash damage, but where the alchemist will presumably be pummeled into smithereens) and at 20 and 30 feet (where I assumed a miss would not do splash damage, although that might not be the case for a large enough creature). So Point Blank Shot bonuses are included, but I excluded long term buffs like Heroism. I also calculated the amount of burn damage in case he's throwing alchemist's fire.
Oh, and I also left out critical hits because I couldn't be bothered over 1 or 2 points of damage. You can tack on an extra 5% in some cases, if you really care.
Note: I also could have calculated the DPS using just splash damage (targeting an AC 5 square), but I'm too lazy. The one calculation I did showed that at 30 feet the DPS would be 30.45, with no possiblity of burn.
Just to knock out all of the fighter builds, here's Farshot Fallon. (Rapidshot Red is, naturally, a ranger.) Of course, she doesn't have Far Shot, that feat sucks.
Quote:
Farshot Fallon, human fighter 10.
** spoiler omitted **
Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot are both damage increases, so Fallon uses both. Her attack routine with DA/RS is:
+3 longbow +19(x2)/+19/+14, d8+15 dmg (19-20/x3)
Her average damage per round is 68.25. A +1 to hit is worth ~4.49 DPR, a +1 to damage is worth 3.42 DPR, and an additional attack is worth 18.72 DPR. These numbers do not include Point Blank Shot.
Manyshot is crazy good. It's worth 15.60 DPR alone. Critical Focus, on the other hand, is only worth 2.34 DPR to Fallon, and could probably be replaced with a utility or melee feat.
I'm very interested to see how a Ranger stacks up to this. Obviously the Ranger will miss out on the Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training damage, but an optimized small cat animal companion should more than make up for that, if the napkin math off the top of my head is correct.
I don't think it would be very useful, since monster damage is really heterogenous. Hit up the monster creation chart, and multiply the high damage value times the character's chance to be hit by the high attack value. That is a quick and dirty monster-by-CR DPR value.
Right, and I added 5% for crits; how to get the monster's DPR is pretty obvious (except when DR enters the mix, I still haven't looked at average number of attacks). The important part is how long a given build will survive against it, and whether that survival factor might make up for weaker damage output (or conversely, allow strong output to be sustained). Constitution, Toughness, armor bonuses, etc. always seem to be skimped or completely ignored in supposedly optimized builds. (Speaking of which, Jack and Fred both appear to be gaining the benefits of Toughness without having actually taken the feat.) But if you can't kill before you're killed, that doesn't seem terribly optimal. :)
D'oh! In that case, Tempest Ted might be down 10hp. :)
Tempest Ted has Toughness, the other fighters have Improved Iron Will.
Moro wrote:
I'm very interested to see how a Ranger stacks up to this. Obviously the Ranger will miss out on the Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training damage, but an optimized small cat animal companion should more than make up for that, if the napkin math off the top of my head is correct.
Don't forget the animal-domain cleric archer, who will also be participating.
John Spalding wrote:
This character is clearly mixed focus (he can mellee well, but still has nearly his full complement of spells and the feats to back up summoning as a significant secondary or even main strategy).
He's kind of mixed focus in a goofy way. Augment Summoning and a Wild Shape focus do not go together, because the only spell a wildshaper can never pull off is Summon Nature's Ally. I'm pretty sure a devoted WSer would at least go INA/WF (claws) or go for the grapple feats.
Also, you're casting three GMFs on the pet but only getting +1 to hit. GMF on one natural attack is +(caster level/4), not +1.
Keep in mind that the only time you get to rake and full attack in PF is if you're grappling (and even then, it may not actually work).
Hogarth wrote:
For my own amusement, I did some of the same analysis for an alchemist.
Two-Weapon Thrower Alchemist:
It's kind of sad that alchemist's fire is better than his bombs.
He's kind of mixed focus in a goofy way. Augment Summoning and a Wild Shape focus do not go together, because the only spell a wildshaper can never pull off is Summon Nature's Ally. I'm pretty sure a devoted WSer would at least go INA/WF (claws) or go for the grapple feats.
Admittedly, it's a little wonky. Is the problem with summoning and WS that you cannot talk, because that seems pretty minor? Even without any direction, RAW says the creature "attacks your opponents to the best of its ability" which is most often what you want it for.
The Grapple Feats are hard to fit in with those ability scores, the new stat boost equipment system, and the dex penalty to good wildshape options. You need 15/17 Dex (Large and Huge respectively) to keep the 13 Dex required for the grapple feats. You have to either buy a Dex item (which makes stacking strength twice as expensive) or take a hit to Con or Wisdom. I originally had them in and took them out for this reason. At a higher level (where the str/dex belt is relatively inexpensive) or with a more generous point buy, it would be easier.
INA/WF claws would work. Together they get DPR 32.6 (no rakes) or 50.2 (with rakes).
As for getting rakes, two rules seem to be potentially contradictory:
Pounce (Ex):
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Rake (Ex):
A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
I read them as Rake containing rules only for raking in a grapple and Pounce saying that the ability expands the uses for Rake. I think that if you have both special abilities you can rake on a charge. I could be wrong or one of the rules could be a copy/paste error, but my reading seems to make the best sense of the two sections together.
I didn't include the +2 for charging with the rake attacks, but doing so pushes up DPR:
Druid with the rake and +2 for charging (and WF/INA Claw): 58.3
Druid with rake and +2 for charging: 52.9
More than anything else I think the point is, if I am correct about the way Pounce and Rake interact, a druid is a ton better when charging.
AC: 20 - Touch 14, Flatfooted 18 (+10 +4 armour, +2 dex, +2 Ring of Protection +2 Amulet of Natural Armor)
Attacks: Empowered Fireball, 10d6+(50% of 10d6)+5, reflex dc 23
Quickened Magic Missile, 5d4+10
Mephit's Wand of Lightning Bolt 5d6, reflex save dc 14 (UMD +12 )
Class Abilities:
Evocation School specialization
5th level Spells: 3 + school
BAB: +5 CMB: +4 CMD: 21
Feats:
Scribe Scroll
Empower Spell
Quicken Spell
Spell Focus (Evocation)
Improved Initiative
Combat Casting
Defensive Combat Training
Improved Familiar (mephit)
Skills:
UMD at 10 ranks, seven others at 10 ranks, one at six ranks.
Gear:
Spells (6.5k)
Wand of Lightning Bolt (11.5k)
Hat of +4 int (16k)
Cloak of Resistance +3 (9k)
Handy Haversack (2.5k)
Ring of Protection +2 (8k)
ANA +2 (8k)
I’ve modified the formula a bit to cover the fireball and the lightning bolt, rather than the percentage chance to hit, I need to use the % chance that they fail a save. The good save from the bestiary should be +13, and the bad +9. There is also the chance that it deals half damage. So the revised formula for the cone of cold is: p(d)+(100-p)(0.5d), and the one for the lightning bolt (which needs UMD) is h(p(d)+(100-p)(0.5d)), with h being the chance of the Mephit casting from the Wand
Using a good reflex save, the fireball does 0.45(57.5)+0.55(28.75) = 41.6875
The magic missile always does 22.5
The lightning bolt does 0.65(0.05(17.5)+0.95(8.75)) =5.971875
So against the Good save we do ~70.16 damage ( 64.19 without the mephit)
On the Bad save the fireball does 0.65(57.5)+0.35(28.75)= 37.35 +10.0625 = 47.4125
The magic missile again does 22.5
The lightning bolt does 0.65(0.2(17.5)+0.8(8.75)) = 6.825
So a total of ~76.74 damage (69.2 without the Mephit)
+1 to hit and damage doesn't really effect this, as there aren't any to hits in this and there are very few buffs that increase spell damage. An extra attack would be an extra spell, and there's no way that's happening.
Also note that he can only do this two times a day, and starts to drop off a reasonable amount after that. I also didn't deal with SR and other fun like that. However, this damage is also smacking into other people around, at least from the firebal and lightning bolt.
Admittedly, it's a little wonky. Is the problem with summoning and WS that you cannot talk, because that seems pretty minor? Even without any direction, RAW says the creature "attacks your opponents to the best of its ability" which is most often what you want it for.
Full round casts are essentially incompatible with melee.
Quote:
Also note that he can only do this two times a day, and starts to drop off a reasonable amount after that.
Which is why I wasn't planning to cover it, but hey, good to know.
I was going to do a cleric, but since Treantmonk keeps fiddling with my scratch numbers I'm going to do a monk now, nyah. I am really pulling out all the stops on making this monk a wrecking ball. Do take a look at his defensive numbers to see what kind of tradeoffs are being made; on average, he survives a full attack from a fire giant with .7 HP remaining.
While I stuck to the stated rules for this build, I think a better-balanced monk would drop to a +1 amulet of mighty fists and go with a monk's robe, leading to -1 to hit, +.5 damage, +1 AC, and an additional 2000 GP to spend, probably picking up some bracers of armor along the way.
I have also assumed that Power Attacking while using Flurry of Blows counts the FOB BAB and not the monk's normal BAB. Some GMs rule otherwise. (And seriously, please don't derail this thread with that argument.)
AC: 18 - Touch 18, Flatfooted 16 (+2 monk, +1 dex, +3 wis, +1 Dodge, +1 Ring of Protection)
Attacks: Unarmed +17/+17/+12/+12 d10+8 (19-20/x2)
Class Abilities:
Ki pool (7 points, magic and lawful attacks)
Stunning Fist (DC 18, 10 uses, option to fatigue/sicken)
Improved Evasion
Slow Fall (50')
Other stuff, I am lazy
BAB: +7 (+10 with FOB) CMB: +14 CMD: 22
Feats:
Dodge
Deflect Arrows
Some combat maneuver feat, I seriously don't care
Improved Critical (unarmed)
Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Toughness
Power Attack
Step Up
Lunge
Skills:
Stuff
Gear:
+2 Amulet of Mighty Fists
Belt of +4 str
Handy Haversack
Hat of +2 wis
Ring of Protection +1
Cloak of Resistance +2
Mwk sling
700 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
Since it is a damage increase to use Power Attack, Mel does so. His attack routine with PA is:
Unarmed +14/+14/+9/+9 d10+14 (19-20/x2)
His average damage per round is ~53.63. If he pops a ki point, something he can do seven times a day, his damage per round jumps up to ~69.72. A +1 to hit is worth 4.29 DPR, a +1 to damage is worth 2.75 DPR (3.5 DPR when a ki point is used for an extra attack), and an additional attack is worth ~16.09 DPR.
I'm curious what the DPR for a strength-based rogue would be like.
Okay, here's the cleric archer I was working on. I think I'm going to stick with male melee and female archers, because I like alliteration. As a bonus with this one, I'm going to do the Animal domain DPR because that domain is just gross and one god gives both longbow proficiency and Animal domain. -edit- I changed my mind, since it was getting late. I'll do this in a later post.
You could probably eke out a little more personal DPR by taking a god that gives Charm (for Heroism), Destruction (for the everybody-dies aura), or Nobility (for a Divine Favor, preferably quickened, out of domain slots), but you'd have to wait until you get your bracers of archery to actually take up archery, and Animal is just so silly awesome. Alternately, you can just go for Liberation, Travel, or Luck, because those domains are still silly awesome, and get comparable DPR to this build's solo DPR.
I've chosen not to go ahead and give the cleric a +1 holy (or whatever) weapon. While these are individual DPR tests, characters are played as part of a party, and long-duration buffs you can cast on anyone are a universal resource, available to all members of the party. The cleric would simply cast GMW on the person who benefits the most, and correspondingly that person would typically use a +1 adjective weapon while the other party members used straight plusses.
Class Abilities:
Channel Energy (5d6, Will DC 17, 3/day)
Animal domain (speak with animals 13 rds/day, animal companion of level 7 druid)
Good domain (some super lame abilities)
Spells: 4 / 5+1 / 5+1 / 4+1 / 4+1 / 2+1
0: Stuff
1: Stuff
2: Stuff, Magic Circle Against Evil (domain, used)
3: Stuff, Magic Vestment (used)
4: Stuff, Air Walk (used), Freedom of Movement (used)
5: A domain spell, quickened Divine Favor x2
BAB: +7 CMB: +9 CMD: 23 (immune to trip and grapple)
Gear:
+3 composite longbow (+2 str mod)
Longspear
Belt of +4 dex
Lesser bracers of archery
Mithral breastplate (with Magic Vestment making it +2)
Hat of +2 wis
Handy Haversack
1695 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
Clarissa has two attack routines: one with quickened Divine Favor (which she can use two fights a day), and one without. Deadly Aim is a DPR increase no matter what, so she always uses that. Neither of these routines include Point Blank Shot.
With Divine Favor: +15(x2)/+15/+10, d8+12 (19-20/x2)
Without Divine Favor: +12(x2)/+12/+7, d8+9 (19-20/x2)
With Divine Favor, her average damage per round is ~38.03. A +1 to hit is worth ~3.55 DPR, a +1 to damage is worth ~2.31 DPR, and an additional attack is worth 10.89 DPR. Without DF, her average DPR is 22.41.
Some random factoids:
DPR with Divine Power: ~48.92
DPR with DF, a +1 holy longbow, and GMW'ed arrows: ~48.14
Note that none of these DPR totals include her animal companion.
Incidentally, this is actually higher than the old core 3.5 cleric archer, chiefly due to the fact that she lost absolutely nothing other than DF/DP stacking and gained Deadly Aim and Manyshot. She's much less powerful than a non-core one, not least because of the loss of Divine Metamagic, but also because of Divine Spellpower, Zen Archery, Holy Warrior, and Knowledge Devotion.
Include crits. At the very least, you're looking at about a 5% damage increase just from incorporating crits. Usually it's more.
Don't add crit damage for damage which can't crit. Sneak attack damage, extra multishot arrows, and extra damage from elemental or holy enhancements all can't crit.
Don't use consumables. Consumables allow you to increase your damage per round inordinately, or sometimes sneak abilities into places they can't normally fit (for example, a familiar tossing lightning bolts).
Don't just do DPR for best-case conditions. Give an idea of the DPR of the character when a situational ability doesn't apply, or when a limited ability isn't available.
Right, and I added 5% for crits; how to get the monster's DPR is pretty obvious (except when DR enters the mix, I still haven't looked at average number of attacks). The important part is how long a given build will survive against it, and whether that survival factor might make up for weaker damage output (or conversely, allow strong output to be sustained). Constitution, Toughness, armor bonuses, etc. always seem to be skimped or completely ignored in supposedly optimized builds.
Part of the reason that survivability options are typically ignored in theoretical optimization builds is that survivability options generally suck. While you always get to use your offensive options, +1 AC is rarely worth a feat. Also, high defenses are less useful because you're not always attacked; Team PC generally either outclasses or outnumbers Team Monster, so Team Monster isn't making effective attacks on each PC all the time, while each member of Team PC is always making effective attacks.
With that in mind, I've taken defensive feats when I could afford them and always taken some basic defensive magic items. Note the distinct lack of +4 weapons and +6 stat boosters and such. All of these builds have had 14 con or compensated for that shortcoming in some fashion. Defenses need to reach a certain practical point or you're making one-shot wonder PCs, which aren't much fun to play.
The only noticeably squishy one so far is Melvin the monk; I think I'm going to make a balls-to-the-wall high-str melee rogue and a more-conservative dex-based monk, to be able to offer a spectrum of comparison.
Include crits. At the very least, you're looking at about a 5% damage increase just from incorporating crits. Usually it's more.
Is that why Tempest Ted use Kukris and not a great sword?
Tempest Ted used Kukris because he was there to represent the two-weapon fighter, but yes, that is the reason Tempest Ted used Kukri's instead of two short swords.
I was going to do a cleric, but since Treantmonk keeps fiddling with my scratch numbers I'm going to do a monk now, nyah.
Shall I fiddle by switching Medusa's wrath for Improved Critical, then using stunning fist + Medusa's wrath to bump up that 69.72?
Seems to me that the number ends up being close to 100.
I'm just plugging numbers in my head though as my calculator isn't handy.
Removing improved crit drops expected damage by about 3, add two attacks at 15 each. That's pretty darned close to triple digit I think.
You have to stick a stunning fist for it to work of course. He's got a number of tries to do so though.
Quote:
I am really pulling out all the stops on making this monk a wrecking ball.
As opposed to which other build where you held back to pump defense?
I notice that if he uses a Ki - even with your build, he's outdamaging the TWF rogue, the Falchion and TWF fighter...pretty much all other melee builds tried so far.
Without the special modifiers, he's still one of your better meleers so far...
A far way from,
Quote:
~38.90 DPR if he doesn't blow a Ki, ~51.19 if he does.
So you're looking at three rounds to take down pretty much anything if he blows a ki point per round, with a monk optimized to wreck people. It's about on par with a single-weapon, unhasted, not-optimized-for-damage rogue. (If the rogue TWFs or gets more attacks from haste/Boots of Speed it's no contest.) That's...kind of depressing.
So...NOW are you surprised at the damage potential of the Monk?
I was going to do a cleric, but since Treantmonk keeps fiddling with my scratch numbers I'm going to do a monk now, nyah.
Shall I fiddle by switching Medusa's wrath for Improved Critical, then using stunning fist + Medusa's wrath to bump up that 69.72?
Improved Critical is ~4.76% extra damage all the time assuming you don't need a nat 20 to hit.
If you drop Improved Crit, your DPR is ~66.55 with ki popped. Medusa's Wrath (which bumps your DPR to ~97.27 with a ki popped, a ~32% increase, when it works). requires that you hit with Stunning Fist and that the monster fail the save. You hit with Stunning Fist on a 10+, then the target needs between a 5+ and a 9+ to save. That's between an 11% chance and a 22% chance that you get the extra attacks. So Medusa's Wrath is worth somewhere between ~3.5% and ~7% extra damage, depending on fort saves.
In conclusion, meh. We're deep into fuzzy estimate math territory, but the feats are of approximately equal value. Medusa's Wrath lets you wreck a fool when you have situational advantages, Improved Critical is consistent for hard fights. You should take Medusa's Wrath as your level 10 bonus feat because the prerequisites suck and it's easy to qualify for Improved Critical (which you should take at level 11). That said, at level 10 you're looking at single-digit differences in DPR between the two, and the math is loads simpler for Improved Critical.
Quote:
So...NOW are you surprised at the damage potential of the Monk?
No. I made a build with no defense whatsoever, in return for a 10% DPR increase over pure melee for about 1/2 of a business day. Level-appropriate foes drop him in one full attack and he doesn't return the favor. I don't think it's a viable build, just as str rogue isn't viable. I could make a falchion fighter who wears a cloth shirt and has a +4 weapon and +4 str belt, but what's the point? I dun messed up and made an unplayable monk and skewed things out of whack.
Unless I'm really missing something about how Melvin survives combat, I'm about ready to disqualify him.
Sorry, I likely edited my last post while you were typing.
Do you ever sleep MiB??? :)
Using Stunning fist + Medusa's Wrath does make it fuzzy...got to agree with that.
However, note that you can attempt stunning fist with each attack until one sticks (if one does) up to 10 times per day.
It's not something you can do for every battle - but being that you are seperating the circumstantial stuff (If we are counting Ranger's favored enemey for example) - then it's not wildly circumstantial. You can probably stick it a couple times per day.
However, note that you can attempt stunning fist with each attack until one sticks (if one does) up to 10 times per day.
Quote:
You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round.
I am assuming that you attempt to Stunning Fist your first attack, then if it hits and stuns you get to make two more full-BAB attacks. Even so, it's a ~3-7% DPR increase for Melvin, favoring the low end because fort saves tend to be good. It's only fuzzy in that it adds an additional variable: the fort save of the target. Even if we assume bad fort saves (only +9 instead of +13), we're looking at gaining about 2 DPR over Improved Crit.
No. I made a build with no defense whatsoever, in return for a 10% DPR increase over pure melee for about 1/2 of a business day. Level-appropriate foes drop him in one full attack and he doesn't return the favor. I don't think it's a viable build, just as str rogue isn't viable. I could make a falchion fighter who wears a cloth shirt and has a +4 weapon and +4 str belt, but what's the point? I dun messed up and made an unplayable monk and skewed things out...
You really do have it in for monks don't you? ;) I don't really see what the issue here is. As usual, the monk lags behind on AC (that's one of the things I would have changed in PF but balancing is difficult) and thats easily (and usually) sorted by bracers or Mage Armour.
The HP are similar to many of the builds here, the saves are better and the Monk has much more in the way of extra powers/utilities.
I think it's funny that you set the thread up to be a DPR comparison and then disqualify the Monk for being "too squishy" when you're not really looking at the overall picture.
I think it's funny that you set the thread up to be a DPR comparison and then disqualify the Monk for being "too squishy" when you're not really looking at the overall picture.
Quote:
Magic items will be prioritized for doing damage without adversely affecting survivability.
Melvin 1.0's survivability is seriously adversely affected. CR 10 foes kill him in one round, good saves and utilities be damned. That is unacceptable. You can trade off some of his offense for defense, but damage-per-round starts evaporating when you do that. In fact...
I promise I'm going to do animal companions. But first, we need a Melvin 2.0.
The first try at Melvin was just too defensively hopeless. Dead characters do zero damage. So Since the rules require not adversely affecting survivability, an AC 18 melee character is not acceptable or reasonable.
The new Melvin still has somewhat sub-par AC (only AC 22) but he makes up for it somewhat by picking up a little extra HP (9 more than most melee classes). He's traded in his +2 amulet of mighty fists for a +1 amulet, a +1 ring of protection, and a monk's robe. He's also traded in his +4 str belt for a +2 str/dex/con belt. By downgrading his cloak of resistance, I squeezed some bracers of armor in there as well.
AC: 22 - Touch 20, Flatfooted 19 (+2 monk, +1 Monk's Robe, +2 dex, +3 wis, +1 Dodge, +2 Bracers of Armor, +1 Ring of Protection)
Attacks: Unarmed +15/+15/+10/+10 2d6+6 (19-20/x2)
Class Abilities:
Ki pool (7 points, magic and lawful attacks)
Stunning Fist (DC 18, 11 uses, option to fatigue/sicken)
Improved Evasion
Slow Fall (50')
Other stuff, I am lazy
BAB: +7 (+10 with FOB) CMB: +12 CMD: 24
Feats:
Dodge
Deflect Arrows
Some combat maneuver feat, I seriously don't care
Improved Critical (unarmed)
Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Toughness
Power Attack
Step Up
Lunge
Skills:
Stuff
Gear:
+1 Amulet of Mighty Fists
Belt of Physical Perfection (+2 str/dex/con)
Handy Haversack
Hat of +2 wis
Bracers of Armor +2
Cloak of Resistance +1
Monk's Robe
Ring of Protection +1
Mwk sling
1700 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
Oddly enough, Power Attack is neither a damage increase nor a damage loss without a ki point. Since PA increases his damage when Mel pops a ki point, let's assume he uses it.
His attack routine with PA is:
Unarmed +12/+12/+7/+7 2d6+12 (19-20/x2)
His average damage per round is ~27.17. If he pops a ki point, something he can do seven times a day, his damage per round jumps up to 35.72. A +1 to hit is 4.18 DPR (~5.23 DPR when a ki point is used for an extra attack, a +1 to damage is worth 1.43 DPR (1.92 DPR when you pop a ki), and an additional attack is worth 8.55 DPR.
Okay, I triple-checked my DPR math. It really is that low. Melvin 2.0 is completely incompetent. Someone help me out here with a monk that doesn't fail at life.
Very interesting stuff in here. Especially the DPR improvement percentages on Improved Critical and +1 to damage and +1 to hit.
But I would suggest including the DPR with a standard action and setting the Level up to 11 because a full BAB build gets his 3rd iterative attack and access to some very important feats that upgrade the DPR of both standard(drastically) and full attacks. Like Deadly Stroke, Improved Vital Strike, Two-Weapon Rend, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, ...
What about multiclass builds? I could add a Fighter/Barb based build based on the character I play in our Legacy of Fire campaign.
But I would suggest including the DPR with a standard action and setting the Level up to 11 because a full BAB build gets his 3rd iterative attack and access to some very important feats that upgrade the DPR of both standard(drastically) and full attacks. Like Deadly Stroke, Improved Vital Strike, Two-Weapon Rend, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, ...
Feel free to make a level 11 thread. It's a lot of work and I'm not keen to duplicate it at the moment.
The DR of a standard action is really easy. Unless the class is a TWFer, the single-action DPR is the same as the DPR increase from gaining a single full-BAB attack.
The numbers are going to be different but the order will be more or less similar, because, while full BAB classes get their third iterative and either TWR or GTWF, 3/4 BAB classes get Improved Critical. Basically the only class that isn't a winner is the rogue.
Incidentally, none of these builds have Vital Strike because it's a stone cold terrible feat.
Quote:
What about multiclass builds? I could add a Fighter/Barb based build based on the character I play in our Legacy of Fire campaign.
That's a pretty cool Intimancer but it works like this:
R1: Move into position (or make a single standard attack), Intimidating Glare. Repeat until successful.
R2: Full-round attack, activating Shatter Defenses if you hit. Repeat until you hit. If fear drops off, go back to R1.
R3: Deadly Stroke, which activates Shatter Defenses if you hit, Intimidating Glare. If fear isn't up, go back to R1. If you miss, go back to R2.
That's just way too involved and way too chancy when combat generally lasts four rounds tops. Half the time you'll never get to use Deadly Stroke. That's not going to participate in the DPR races at any level.
I'm really rubbish at optimizing, so I'll need some help with this one before calculations are done. Also, I've only seen single classed characters in this thread, is multi-classing not part of the discussion? Either way, this is the earliest you can get into dragon disciple, anyways.
Wilbur the 1/4 dragon
Spoiler:
Human Bard 5/ Dragon Disciple 5
Ability Scores
STR 22 (+6) (+4 PRC, +4 item)
DEX 18 (+4) (+2 racial, +1 level)
CON 12 (+2)
INT 10 (+0)
WIS 8 (-1)
CHA 16 (+2) (+1 level, +2 item)
HP: 75 (4d8+6d12+25)
Saving Throws:
Fort: +6 Ref: +10 Will: +6
AC: 25 (+6 +2 mithral shirt, +1 dodge, +4 Dex, +3 Natural, +1 Ring of Protection)
That's a pretty cool Intimancer but it works like this:
R1: Move into position (or make a single standard attack), Intimidating Glare. Repeat until successful.
R2: Full-round attack, activating Shatter Defenses if you hit. Repeat until you hit. If fear drops off, go back to R1.
R3: Deadly Stroke, which activates Shatter Defenses if you hit, Intimidating Glare. If fear isn't up, go back to R1. If you miss, go back to R2.
That's just way too involved and way too chancy when combat generally lasts four rounds tops. Half the time you'll never get to use Deadly Stroke. That's not going to participate in the DPR races at any level.
Actually you can do it in two rounds and if the enemy comes to you or you can reach him with a 5' step.
1st round:
Delay for the enemy to act if appropriate.
Free action: Rage
Move Action: Possible 5ft step and Intimidating Glare at the enemy which is now most likely shaken for a freaking 1d4+1 rounds. This is so much better than the standard demoralize!
Standard action: Attack that if it hits makes the enemy flat footed. Cleave on some other enemy if possible.
2nd Round:
Standard action: Deadly Stroke + Power Attack on the flat footed enemy, if you hit you're doing more or less equal damage compared to an unhasted full attack higher AC enemies and the sucker is most likely flat-footed again since Intimidating Glare can last so long.
Move Action: Glare at another enemy or move after the first if he's not yet dead.
... repeat till death.
But yea, against one enemy that is not a tough melee monster or has a high AC or when hasted he'd most likely go toe-to-toe and devastate him with full attacks. Especially at later levels when he can take Critical Feats and make full use of the 15-20 range of his keen Great Falchion.
The new Melvin still has somewhat sub-par AC (only AC 22) but he makes up for it somewhat by picking up a little extra HP (9 more than most melee classes). He's traded in his +2 amulet of mighty fists for a +1 amulet, a +1 ring of protection, and a monk's robe. He's also traded in his +4 str belt for a +2 str/dex/con belt. By downgrading his cloak of resistance, I squeezed some bracers of armor in there as well.
OK. I literally LOL'ed.
Melvin 1.0 is not unplayable (Though you did a good job of making Melvin 2.0 completely useless), you just need to get some armor bonus on the AC. There's lots of good baseline material there:
He's got a better touch AC than any of the other builds
His saves are better than any of the other builds
He's the only build that can negate one ranged weapon per round
He's the only build with improved evasion
His HP are on par with the fighter builds, and better than the non-fighter builds.
In most campaigns you could pick up a wand of Mage Armor, Barkskin, etc, or get some buffs from party members. Of course - picking up a wand of Mage Armor breaks your initial rules - so why don't we just make a couple DIFFERENT changes to Melvin 1.0?
Class Abilities:
Ki pool (7 points, magic and lawful attacks)
Stunning Fist (DC 18, 10 uses, option to fatigue/sicken)
Improved Evasion
Slow Fall (50')
Other stuff, I am lazy
BAB: +7 (+10 with FOB) CMB: +14 CMD: 22
Feats:
Dodge
Deflect Arrows
Improved Grapple
Improved Critical (quarterstaff)
Weapon Focus (quarterstaff)
Toughness
Power Attack
Improved Fort
Improved Will
Skills:
Stuff
Gear: (62,000 gp)
Quarterstaff - both sides enchanted with +2 (16,300)
Belt of +4 str (16,000)
Hat of +2 wis (4,000)
Bracers of armor +3 (9,000)
Ring of Protection +2 (8,000)
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2,000)
Haversack (2,000)
Ioun Stone - Dusty red prism (5,000)
700 gp for whatever else
So Melvin 1.1 gets 24 AC - better than Melvin 2.0, so lets see how his damage compares to Melvin 2.0
Melvin 1.1 with PA.
Staff +14/+14/+9/+9 d6+14 (19-20/x2)
His average damage per round is ~48.15. With a ki point, his damage per round jumps up to ~62.57. A +1 to hit is worth 3.85 DPR, a +1 to damage is worth 2.75 DPR (3.5 DPR when a ki point is used for an extra attack), and an additional attack is worth ~14.44 DPR.
Compared to Melvin 2.0 Melvin 1.1 is a clear winner. Compared to Melvin 1.1, he does slightly less damage, but is far more defensively solid, retaining the good HP, but increasing AC by 6.
Defensively, Melvin 1.1 has between 1 and 2 lower AC than most melee builds presented, Similar HP, has better saves (especially on the important saves - Fort + Will), can ignore one ranged weapon per round, improved evasion, and has equal or better touch and flat footed AC compared to the other builds.
Compared to the other builds presented, Melvin 1.1 is closest in offensive capability to Tempest Ted. If he uses a Ki point, then he's the best meleer compared so far. Overall, offensively, Melvin 1.1 is sitting about the middle of the road for the melee builds. This of course ignores grapple or stunning fist since these don't directly relate to this comparison.
I lost Cloak of Resistance, but Melvin 1.1 still has the best saves going on this thread overall.
This was an easy defensive upgrade. I wonder why you decided instead to totally gimp the Monk and make an unplayable build MiB?
Quick question in case I missed something: Where did the DC on the fireball come from? I don't see greater spell focus and the empower feat doesn't raise the DC.
For every one of these that I try to recalculate, my math comes up wrong.
Could you please plug the numbers into your equation so I can see where my math is faulty, say for the 2hand weapon fighter since it only gets 2 attacks.
Instead of switching to a quarterstaff, Melvin 1.2 gets rid of Amulet of Mighty Fists and gets a permanent Greater Magic Fang instead (commercially purchased).
This gives him enough money left over (with a few other purchases changed) to add the Monk's Robe.
Offense abounds (significantly better than Melvin 1.1, somewhat better than Melvin 1.0, Defense is similar to Melvin 1.1 though Melvin boasts some slightly better numbers.
Class Abilities:
Ki pool (7 points, magic and lawful attacks)
Stunning Fist (DC 18, 10 uses, option to fatigue/sicken)
Improved Evasion
Slow Fall (50')
Other stuff, I am lazy
BAB: +7 (+10 with FOB) CMB: +14 CMD: 22
Feats:
Dodge
Deflect Arrows
Improved Grapple
Improved Critical (unarmed)
Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Toughness
Power Attack
Improved Fort
Improved Will
Skills:
Stuff
Gear: (62,000 gp)
Commercially purchased Greater Magic Fang (level 8 caster): 2,400gp
Scroll of Permanency (used on Greater Magic Fang): 10,000
Belt of +4 str (16,000)
Hat of +2 wis (4,000)
Bracers of armor +3 (9,000)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000)
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2,000)
Haversack (2,000)
Monk's Robe - (13,000)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1,000)
600 gp for whatever else
Not sure whether having spells commercially bought is legal under your rules - though the effects are permanent so I can't see why not.
Melvin 1.2 has the following stats:
Melvin 1.2 with PA.
Unarmed +14/+14/+9/+9 2d6+14 (19-20/x2)
His average damage per round is ~57.78. With a ki point, his damage per round jumps up to ~75.08. A +1 to hit is worth 4.62 DPR, a +1 to damage is worth 3.3 DPR (4.2 DPR when a ki point is used for an extra attack), and an additional attack is worth ~17.33 DPR.
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