Since my Twilight 2000 game interest check seems to have hit a lull, I'll suggest another game. This one goes back to an unfulfilled dream from mine from childhood.
Would anyone like to play some BECMI (which stands for Basic, Expert, Companion, Masters, Immortal, the five boxed sets published by TSR in the early 80s) D&D modules using Old-School Adventures, specifically the "Advanced Fantasy" rules? I would be particularly interested in playing this as a sandbox, in which you start near the town of Threshold in the northern reaches of the Grand Duchy of Karameikos (that's in the default D&D setting of Mystara). It wouldn't be like a Paizo AP where things can get pretty railroady, but would depend on the players to let me (the DM) know where you want to go and what you want to do. Of course I'd drop lots of hints and hooks for adventures all over the place, but deciding which thread to follow would be up to the PCs. I'd even be willing to run this like a hexcrawl where you explore beyond the fringes of civilization if none of the hooks seem interesting.
BECMI Modules I'd really be interested in eventually playing:
B2 Keep on the Borderlands
B4 The Lost City
B6 The Veiled Society
B7 Rahasia
B10 Night's Dark Terror
X1 The Isle of Dream
X2 Castle Amber
X4 Master of the Desert Nomads
X5 Temple of Death
DA1 Adventures in Blackmoor
DDA1 Arena of Thyatis
DDA4 The Dymrak Dead
Possibly the Hollow Earth series?
As is my wont, I would definitely modify these adventures to suit my tastes and more modern game conventions, but the bones would all still be there. I'd also be drawing on material found in adventures from Dungeon, or from other OSR games to "fill out the world".
One thing that I have found with modern players (and GMs) running older adventures, is that forward momentum in them is very dependent on the players, which can be difficult. Newer adventures have MAJOR PLOTS that move the PCs along, but in older modules the motivation has to come from the imagination of the players making up reasons for the PCs to go on and complete these adventures. It's okay to have the accumulation of wealth and equipment be one of the main motivating factors (especially since the gold you collect literally gets turned into XP), but I have found that this can sometimes fall short if the PCs don't have substantial personal motivations and goals.
So, anyone interested?
Dotting for interest
Yes please! Would love to join this one.
I am familiar with, and a huge fan of BX and BECMI. Also very familiar with OSE, both Classic and Advanced Fantasy - as usual I prefer Classic. Love me some Race as Class :D
I would be particularly interested in playing this as a sandbox, in which you start near the town of Threshold in the northern reaches of the Grand Duchy of Karameikos (that's in the default D&D setting of Mystara). It wouldn't be like a Paizo AP where things can get pretty railroady, but would depend on the players to let me (the DM) know where you want to go and what you want to do. Of course I'd drop lots of hints and hooks for adventures all over the place, but deciding which thread to follow would be up to the PCs. I'd even be willing to run this like a hexcrawl where you explore beyond the fringes of civilization if none of the hooks seem interesting.
...in older modules the motivation has to come from the imagination of the players making up reasons for the PCs to go on and complete these adventures. It's okay to have the accumulation of wealth and equipment be one of the main motivating factors (especially since the gold you collect literally gets turned into XP), but I have found that this can sometimes fall short if the PCs don't have substantial personal motivations and goals.
And very much this! Which is my absolute favorite way of playing D&D. From my personal experience, I think the characters who are lucky and/or resilient enough to survive and progress, will tend to get involved with the world and setting, quickly developing their own agendas.
Until then, it is a world populated with adventures, dungeons, treasure, and places to explore - what else could a budding adventurer need? ;)
Dotting for interest, I have Basic and Expert rules and if the game moves along long enoggh would be willing to purchase Companion, Masters, Immortal, rules to keep going.
My first experience playing and DMing was this set of rules :-)
EDIT: someone may hve given me the Companion rules but I'll need to dig through some bins to confirm that. I don;t keep most of my older etiton stuff on the shelves..
I had hoped that there would be some interest in this type of game! However, since we always get at least one person who drops out at the beginning, I would like to wait to see if we can get a few more interested parties before I start a formal recruitment thread if that's okay with everyone.
In the meantime we can all chat about the kinds of rules/tropes we'd like to see in this BECMI game. I am presenting them now so you know where I stand and so that we (if you're interested in playing in this game) can discuss them.
1) I am planning on using the Old-School Essentials rules for this game, specifically those found in the Advanced Player's Tome from Necrotic Gnome. Although I have the original BECMI boxed sets as well as the hardcover Rules Cyclopedia, I find that the OSE rules consolidate and edit everything very nicely. That, and they're currently easily available if folks want to buy them. If you only have the older TSR publications, that's totally fine, you can use them just as easily. If there are discrepancies between the rules systems, we can figure them out. If you don't have access to either the old TSR rules or the newer OSE rules, you can download the OSE Basic Rules for free from DTRPG.
Another reason I want to use the OSE Advanced Fantasy rules instead of the OSE Basic rules, is that I am not a huge fan of the "race as class" conceit, and the Advanced Rules allow you to use the more AD&D rule of having race and class be separated. Having said that, if you really, really want to play a PC that uses "race as class", I would be okay with it.
2) I am planning on running the OSE rules mostly as written, but I would like to bring in other rules/conceits from other games as well. Here are some of the OSE character creation rules I plan on using:
a) Race and Class are separate (but see above)
b) Everyone starts at Level 1
c) Everyone has secondary skills from a previous profession (this can be rolled randomly or chosen)
d) Ascending AC (I know, I know, but I am not a fan of EVERYTHING from back then)
e) Attack roll modifiers instead of THAC0 (I am generally for simplifying the game, not making everyone look up stuff on additional tables)
f) Everyone has one class; no multiple classes
g) No weapon proficiencies
h) Roll 3d6 for stats in order (SIWDCCh) but make two characters. If you roll very poorly (all stats 8 or less), you can discard the character. Pick one of the two characters you rolled to play. The other character is a backup in case the first one dies (which is more common in OSE play).
i) Races and classes often have minimum ability scores.
j) You may raise your character's prime requisite by lowering other non-prime-requisite ability scores. For every 2 points by which an ability score is lowered, 1 point may be added to a prime requisite. The following restrictions apply:
▶ Only Strength, Intelligence, and Wisdom may be lowered in this way.
▶ No score may be lowered below 9.
▶ Some character classes may have additional constraints.
k) Max HP at first level, and after 1st, 1s and 2s may be re-rolled.
l) High prime requisite scores give bonus XP.
m) Available classes: Acrobat, Assassin, Barbarian, Bard, Cleric (note that 1st level Clerics have no spells), Druid, Fighter, Illusionist, Knight, Magic-User, Paladin, Ranger, Thief. I think that's a lot, so I propose we limit ourselves to these. I know other classes have been written for OSE, but in the beginning, let's pick from these.
n) Available Races: Human, Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf, Halfling, Half-Orc, Human. If you really insist, you may take any of these races as classes as well.
3) When beginning a new campaign, I prefer it if all the PCs already know each other. As classic as it is, I prefer not to have everyone just "meet in a tavern". In order to do so, we collectively come up with an "origin story" for the group. Most folks don't become adventurers unless they absolutely have to (due to the incredible danger of being one), so most folks have a very good reason of leaving behind their old life.
I have more ideas, but that's enough for now. How do y'all feel about all of this?
edit note: I had started typing up this post before you posted the additional information.
I have all five boxed sets, the Rules Cyclopedia, all four Creature Crucibles, all fourteen Gazetteers, Dawn of the Emperors: Thyatis and Alphatia boxed set, Wrath of the Immortals boxed set, Champions of Mystara boxed set, Hollow World boxed set and all three Poor Wizard's Almanacs. I also have (most I think) AD&D 2E Mystara products (I made a fair bit of use of at least one of the audio sound CDs (DVDs?) from the boxed sets)
My top two preferences from the list above are X1: Isle of Dread (not Dream :) and Arena of Thyatis. My players had a lot of fun when I ran those for them, but have never played through them as a player.
I made a lot of use out of the naming table from Arena of Thyatis (or is the naming table from the follow-up adventure?)
Question regarding character options: Can we make use of the additional character options from the Creature Crucibles, Gazetteers and boxed sets?
If yes/yes to some, some of my preferred choices from certain CCs/Gazetteers/boxed sets/Rules Cyclopedia:
Rules Cyclopedia: mystic
CC 1 Tall Tales of the Wee Folk: leprechaun
CC 2 Top Ballista: pegataur or sphinx
CC 3 The Sea Peoples: sea giant
CC 4 Night Howlers: werefox
Dawn of the Emperors boxed set: forester or rake
GAZ 3: The Principalities of Glantri: dracologist
GAZ 6: The Dwarves of The Dwarves of Rockhome: dwarf cleric
GAZ 8: The Five Shires: halfling master
GAZ 10: The Orcs of Thar: (if you allow outliers that are not chaotic alignment): shaman or wicca (goblin, ogre or troll)
GAZ 11: The Republic of Darokin: merchant
GAZ 12: The Golden Khan of Ethengar: shaman
GAZ 13: The Shadow Elves: shadow elf shaman
GAZ 14: The Atruaghin Clans: Atruaghin shamani
Would you be using Weapon Mastery rules (from Rules Cyclopedia), which is one of my favorite rules elements from BECMI that was never incorporated in any of the advanced or later editions of D&D.
Question regarding character options: Can we make use of the additional character options from the Creature Crucibles, Gazetteers and boxed sets?
I mean, since this is partially a nostalgia cruise, why not? Let me take a look at what you posted.
Rules Cyclopedia: mystic
I never realized BECMI had a monk. Sure, why not?
CC 1 Tall Tales of the Wee Folk: leprechaun
I am more hesitant for this one but it would certainly require a serious backstory as to how a leprechaun joined the party. It would also possibly draw the campaign into including a lot more faerie content.
CC 2 Top Ballista: pegataur or sphinx
I think these are too powerful. If the game ever goes to higher levels, I might reconsider, but not at 1st level.
CC 3 The Sea Peoples: sea giantDon't see how this would work outside of a total underwater campaign plus they're huge!
CC 4 Night Howlers: werefox
Maybe, but this would draw campaign towards lycanthropy, similar to what would happen with the leprechaun. Lycanthropy does crop up in Karameikos, so I am not totally opposed.
Dawn of the Emperors boxed set: forester or rake
Both seem fine, although I am planning on setting this is Karameikos to begin with and playing with the differences between the traditional Traladaran and newcomer Thyatian culture a bit. A forester or rake would definitely fall into the latter category
GAZ 3: The Principalities of Glantri: dracologist
Not totally opposed, but this ties you pretty closely to Glantri (in terms of finding masters of a higher circle to teach and induct you). Glantri is pretty far away from Karameikos. If you are willing to take on this burden, then I'm okay with it.
GAZ 6: The Dwarves of The Dwarves of Rockhome: dwarf cleric
Sure, but since we're planning on separating race and class, this could also be done more simply.
GAZ 8: The Five Shires: halfling master
This sub-class is pretty closely tied to the Shire plus it's something you can't even try out until 8th level. If you want to play a normal halfling class until then, that's fine.
GAZ 10: The Orcs of Thar: (if you allow outliers that are not chaotic alignment): shaman or wicca (goblin, ogre or troll)
I'm going to say no for these.
GAZ 11: The Republic of Darokin: merchant
This would be okay, but you would spend a lot of time worrying about buying and selling goods, since that's how you gain MXP.
GAZ 12: The Golden Khan of Ethengar: shaman
Power-wise it's okay, but you'd have to come up with quite a backstory why you aren't with your own people.
GAZ 13: The Shadow Elves: shadow elf shaman
I'd rather keep the shadow elves out of this game for now.
GAZ 14: The Atruaghin Clans: Atruaghin shamani
Same with the Atruagian clans. Too foreign for Karameikos.
Would you be using Weapon Mastery rules (from Rules Cyclopedia), which is one of my favorite rules elements from BECMI that was never incorporated in any of the advanced or later editions of D&D.
As the effects of this don't really crop up until higher level, I'd be willing to try this out.
Also, here's a beautiful map of Karameikos.
Thanks for the feedback.
I am thinking race (halfling), class (mystic) with the potential to become a halfling master at higher level.
Mystic class goes to level 16, but there is only a limited number of mystics above 9th level: 7 each for levels 10-12, 5 each for levels 13-15, 3 for level 16. To reach a higher level of mystic than 9th, a mystic must find and challenge a higher-level mystic.
A name level (9th) mystic is addressed as master and can build a stronghold or a cloister. If the Grand Abbot of the mystic's current cloister, the cloister will pay for the construction of the new cloister, which is an extensive of the Grand Abbot's cloister.
I am thinking halfling mystic to 9th level, then founding a cloister in the Five Shires and level up in the halfling master class (provided of course I am accepted and my halfling mystic makes it to 9th level to see this dream of theirs come to fruition).
1st set of ability scores:
2nd set of ability scores:
Mystics have two prime requisites: Str and Dex. Since they need a minimum of 13 in Dex, Strength is their prime requisite that is used for bonus XP. A mystic needs a minimum of 13 in Dexterity and Wisdom.
Halfling (racial class) have two prime requisites: Str and Dex and must have a minimum of 9 in both Dexterity and Constitution.
Do halflings/elves/dwarves have specific ability score requirements with the separation of race and class?
Neither of my rolled sets qualifies to be a mystic. :(
Any chance you will add the Organic Ability Score method from D&D 3.5 (sans increasing 3d6 to 4d6) to our ability score options?
With (reduced) Organic method added into the mix: Roll in order, then you may reroll a single rolled ability score, which you can use if higher than the original roll. Then you may swap any two ability scores. (then to the drop 2 from Str/Int/Wis to increase prime requisite by 1).
Will wait for your reply to see if making a halfling mystic is viable with my rolled sets above.
Do halflings/elves/dwarves have specific ability score requirements with the separation of race and class?
Species (the term I prefer over "race" because the latter has negative RL implications) have both ability score requirements and modifiers. Here they all are:
ABILITY SCORE REQUIREMENTS AND ABILITY MODIFIERS BY SPECIES:
Dwarf: Minimum CON 9, Modifiers -1 CHA, +1 CON
Elf: Minimum INT 9, Modifiers -1 CON, +1 DEX
Gnome: Minimum CON 9, INT 9, Modifiers None
Half-elf: Minimum CHA 9, CON 9, Modifiers None
Halfling: Minimum CON 9, DEX 9, Modifiers +1 DEX, -1 STR
Half-Orc: No requirements, Modifiers -2 CHA, +1 CON, +1 STR
Humans have no requirements or modifiers
Any chance you will add the Organic Ability Score method from D&D 3.5 (sans increasing 3d6 to 4d6) to our ability score options?
Nope, but the first set doesn't preclude a halfling. I know it keeps you from the Mystic class, however.
No time to evaluate, just getting the rolls in. Quick glance group 1
Even if the stats are less than exemplary (certainly by PF-standards), remember that turnover is high in these games, so the chances are good that you'll be playing a new PC soon! Additionally, modifiers are a lot less important in OSE.
Here are the ability score minimums and prime requisites for the various classes:
Acrobat: None, Prime Req: DEX
Assassin: None, Prime Req: DEX
Barbarian: DEX 9, Prime Req: CON and STR
Bard: DEX 9, Int 9, Prime Req: CHA
Cleric: None, Prime Req: WIS
Druid: None, Prime Req: WIS
Fighter: None, Prime Req: STR
Illusionist: DEX 9, Prime Req: INT
Knight: CON 9, DEX 9, Prime Req: STR
Magic-User: None, Prime Req: INT
Paladin: CHA 9, Prime Req: STR and WIS
Ranger: CON 9, WIS 9, Prime Req: STR
Thief: None, Prime Req: DEX
Will you allow woodrake from CC Tall Tales of the Wee Folk? shapechange at will between drake, elf and halfing forms. Does not gain Invisibility to Mortals until has earned a total of 64,000 XP. They start at 3 levels below normal monster (-16,000; -12,000; -8,0000). They do not start with any thieving abilities: @ -6,000 XP (as 1st level thief); @ -4,000 XP (as as 3rd level thief); @ 0 XP (normal monster) (as 5th level thief); (DM has option to add in lv 2 thief @ -5,000 XP and lv 4 thief @ -2,000 XP); (after lv 0 (normal monster) to level 8 has abilities as thief equal to HD; afterwards gains 1 level of thief per 2 woodrake.
Also thinking of:
Thyatian werefox rake.
Traladaran werefox magic-user (with hopes the character becomes a dracolocist).
leprechaun
Looks like set 1 with a human bard. I’ll figure out how to get the CHA up to 15
Big fan of B/X and OSE Classic.
Reading through the proposed rules, I do find myself wondering how much of the classic experience is left here. A lot of the choices — separate race and class, the expanded class list, secondary skills, ascending AC, modified stat generation, and the emphasis on character backstories and personal motivations — seem to move the game quite substantially away from the B/X/OSE Classic experience.
Again, that's not meant as a criticism of the proposed game. Different people enjoy different flavours of old-school play, and I can certainly see the appeal of some of these choices. It's just that, for me, they add up to something that feels considerably different from what I personally look for in OSE Classic.
So, unfortunately, it's a pass for me this time. Good luck with the interest check, the recruitment, and the game! If you ever decide to return to the basics with B/X straight up or OSE Classic, count me in!
Albion, what are your thoughts about the ORSIC system? I just got my copy and haven't had much time to review it. Have you had experience with it? Or anyone else here, for that matter!
Hehe, I am a suspect one to offer an opinion on OSRIC - I backed the kickstarter, and will in general support most, or all stuff Matt Finch puts out. Even more so because he is associating also with other people who produce high quality stuff, the kind that I want to play - just check out the three adventures which came with the Kickstarter: Cult of the Crooked Tower, Fortress Tomb of the Ice Lich, and Whispers of the Death God.
With all that being said, and since my preferred systems are BX, S&W and AD&D, I think OSRIC as a retroclone/re-writing of the AD&D rules is an amazing product (I am not even going into the fact it is absolutely FREE). In the past OSRIC2 was already a great product, many times used as an entryway to 'full-blown' AD&D or to clarify that classic ruleset, but also as a standalone product.
With OSRIC3 they have done a lot of improvements in the presentation, layout and user friendliness - it now really is a complete standalone product and (like AD&D) one of the best RPG systems out there in my opinion.
So yeah - big fan and highly recommend it. And now I will stop derailing the thread :P
Just a disclaimer to say I am in no way associated to Mythmere Games or OSRIC, just a big fan of their products ;)
Arr! I gotta at least roll the dice to make a couple characters, as my first RP experience was with the Red Box in the Lost City! (I wasn't a pirate then, as that would be weird, seeing as the Lost City's in the middle of a desert!)
CHARACTER 1
CHARACTER 2
Wow--a character with two 18s! I can't recall that EVER happening in my many years of B/E/C/M/I play!
Uh oh, Steve. That means nothing but nat 1s from here on out!
Uh oh, Steve. That means nothing but nat 1s from here on out!
Probably.
Will you allow woodrake from CC Tall Tales of the Wee Folk? shapechange at will between drake, elf and halfing forms. Does not gain Invisibility to Mortals until has earned a total of 64,000 XP. They start at 3 levels below normal monster (-16,000; -12,000; -8,0000). They do not start with any thieving abilities: @ -6,000 XP (as 1st level thief); @ -4,000 XP (as as 3rd level thief); @ 0 XP (normal monster) (as 5th level thief); (DM has option to add in lv 2 thief @ -5,000 XP and lv 4 thief @ -2,000 XP); (after lv 0 (normal monster) to level 8 has abilities as thief equal to HD; afterwards gains 1 level of thief per 2 woodrake.
Also thinking of:
Thyatian werefox rake.
Traladaran werefox magic-user (with hopes the character becomes a dracolocist).
leprechaun
I am unwilling to step on your "out of the box" choices, Drake, but how would you integrate the PC into a "normal" group? Would you simply pretend you are not a faerie?
For the potential leprechaun...
A clurachaun (a leprechaun that inhabits wine cellars),
The other PCs are drinking above in the tavern/inn and hear a bottle break in the cellar - the clurachaun got tipsy and the bottle of wine she was drinking slipped out of her hands. (9 inches tall leprechauns stand, so say 8 inches for her), Hearing footsteps coming down she turns invisible...but one of the PCs noticed her before she turned invisible...so she was invisible to all but one..with the one who can see her directing the others who cannot so they box her in, and the PC who can see her picks her up.
"Ye'all gots me when I was tipsthy. Thath's not fair. I don't have any gold, just take care of the kegs here so they don't leak. I drink less than I save from making sure the casks don't leakth."
Leaving rest open in case you approve of the leprechaun so other players can collaborate on how their unexpected discovery of a leprechaun led to the leprechaun joining their adventuring party.
For the potential woodrake...
The woodrake would pretend to be a halfling...who would eventually learn how to become a thief (as woodrakes do not get thieving abilities right away).
A potential reason for the woodrake deciding to remain in halfling form for such an extensive time was a bet he made with another fey (maybe a satyr and/or faun) that he could fool the humans into thinking he was just a normal halfling for a year and a day....though of course he comes to regard the other PCs as trustworthy allies that he becomes attached to...possibly struggling with wanting to win the bet while wanting to no longer deceive who he has come to view as his friends.
Those both seem good ideas for backgrounds, Drake. Have you had experience playing BECMI using these types of "monster" PCs? If so, may I ask you what those experiences were, especially in their power-level versus standard PCs?
As a player (and not DM/GMing), not really, as I was usually the DM for the better part of my first decade enjoying playing the hobby. As a DM, I incorporated some of them into my campaigns. Some of the easier ones were the lower level humanoids from Thar (goblin, kobold, orc).
Because of how TSR did negative levels for many of the 'monster PCs', some of them start out weaker than a typical Lv 1 PC. Some of them that start out at NM (normal monster) levels from the get go can be considerably weaker than a typical Lv 1 PC. The leprechaun is a good example of that:
A leprechaun's invisibility at will (with the caveat that they have a drawback to it that is similar, though not quite the same, a the weeping angels from Doctor Who). Initial leprechaun PCs only have 1d2 (plus Con modifier) hit points, do not start with any spells. Their first level increase is at 2,000 XP, when they gain an additional 1d2 (plus Con mod) and gain their first spell.
So far the following have made rolls for ability scores: GM Piratey Steve, scranford, Storyteller Shadow, Drake, and Daniel Stewart. If those folks are all still interested in playing, I think we have enough for me to start the official recruitment thread!
I am, though a heads-up that this week I am still in process of completing some new PCs I created for PFS PBP Game Day (which starts a week from tomorrow).