Greetings and well met!
I'm looking for some advice on my Thaumaturge for our upcoming Seven Dooms of Sandpoint campaign. I've been going back and forth on this build for weeks and have reached full-on analysis paralysis.
Party
Gunslinger
Gunslinger
Kholo Barbarian (with animal companion)
Champion or Oracle (player hasn't decided)
Me: Thaumaturge
Current Build
Human (Versatile Human)
Background: Curious Apprentice
Ability Scores
STR +3
DEX +1
CON +1
INT +0
WIS +0
CHA +4
Current Plan
Implement: Weapon
Level 1: Diverse Lore, Scroll Thaumaturgy
Level 2: Esoteric Warden + Champion Dedication (Free Archetype)
Level 4: Devout Magic + Basic Devotion (Lay on Hands) + Deity's Domain (Might)
Equipment will be a whip, starknife, buckler, and breastplate, eventually upgrading to full plate.
My Questions
STR or DEX? Is Strength still the better choice for this party, or would a Dexterity build offer more?
Weapon Implement: Is it actually as good as it looks, or do people tend to overvalue it? Has anyone regretted taking it?
Level 5 Implement: I originally planned on Tome for the monster-hunter flavor, but Mirror and Amulet both seem really strong. Which would you recommend for Seven Dooms?
Instructive Strike vs Champion feats: Would you prioritize Instructive Strike, or stay the course with Champion archetype progression?
Party Role: My last campaign was two years of playing a very support-heavy Zoo Bard. While this party seems like it could use support, I'd really like to be more combat-focused this time without sacrificing everything that makes the Thaumaturge great. Is that a reasonable direction, or would you lean harder into support given the party composition?
Any advice is appreciated, especially from people who have played Thaumaturges in long campaigns or Seven Dooms specifically. Thanks!
You can just dump dex to 0 and put that point in wis and boost str/con/wis/cha. It's just a wasted boost past level 1.
Weapon is fine for your implement, though I'd take flickmace, asp coil or breaching pike over a whip. Tome is near mandatory in a 4-man party just to cover all skills, but as long as the rest of the party properly diversifies you can go with whatever you want.
I wouldn't use instructive strike at all. If you're going to take a thaumaturge feat over a 2nd focus point, go with breached defenses. Champ archetype ends with the champ reaction. Afterward you can safely go into anything else, though I recommend sleepwalker for its infinite out of combat advantage on skill checks which goes great with diverse lore and the tome.
Thanks for the feedback!
Do you really think putting that point into Wisdom is better than the +1 AC from starting with DEX +1? I hadn't really considered dropping DEX entirely, so I'm curious about your reasoning.
I might be able to convince my GM to let me use a Scorpion Whip, but how do you get access to something like a Flickmace or Asp Coil without a pretty hefty feat investment? I was under the impression they weren't that easy to pick up on a Human Thaumaturge.
I ended up taking Fleet and Incredible Initiative for my general feats, so I was trying to squeeze as much mobility and action economy as I could.
If Tome isn't your favorite implement, what would you recommend instead? I'm still leaning Tome at level 5, but Mirror and Amulet keep catching my eye.
Also, I actually have my Pathbuilder set up with a second focus point already. I'm just second-guessing whether I should stick with that or take a Thaumaturge feat like Breached Defenses instead.
I'll definitely have to take a look at Sleepwalker too—I don't know much about that archetype, but "infinite out-of-combat advantage on skill checks" definitely has my attention.
OH and what about devout blessing?
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Plate armor caps at +0 dex so dex doesn't contribute to AC past level 1.
Hunan grabs unconventional weaponry at 1 for any ancestry-based weapon they want while also bypassing the rarity tag.
Tome is fine, just pointing out it isn't necessary. I have no other preference really. Maybe wand as an emergency ranged attack or shield if you go into bastion archetype for the bonus reaction feats.
I'd take breached defenses over a second focus point. An extra emergency heal is nice but not really necessary and you can always grab more focus points later.
I don't think I ever take devout blessing. It mostly amounts to saving 75gp on a ghost touch rune before you turn it into an astral rune. Critical specialization isn't reliable enough to go out of your way for unless you use a bow.
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Personally i was a bit frustrated with weapon as an implement, quasi reactive strike at lvl 1 felt great, but being limited to a single target did not.
I used an asp coil, because with cha as key and str as follow up you'll be a glass cannon, and reach helped a lot with manipulate in melee - at least until enemies got reach themselves.
I loved the versatility of tome, switching to survival when we crash-landed in the desert for example. The quasi sure-strike at lvl 9 is also really nice against hard to hit enemies.
I usually strongly counsel against weapon as your first inplement. It's not that it's bad, it's that its boring (Plus, its unique ability to bully spellcasters doesn't really become relevant until higher levels). If you want to maximize how many strikes you make, go with a fighter. Although starting at 4th level means you don't have to wait long before actually getting something unique. It also pairs nicely with passive implements (Tome, Regalia, Lantern) because you don't have to worry about switching back and forth (which is especially awkward with reaction implements potentially turning off auras outside your turn)
As for your second implement... Amulet is less attractive with Champion dedication if you can pick up a sefless reaction (that is, one that gives allies resistance). It does give you the option to protect yourself, at least.
Thanks, this is all really helpful.
The point about Dexterity is interesting. My thinking was that the +1 DEX would at least give me +1 AC while I'm in breastplate for the early levels, plus a little help with Reflex and my backup starknife. Do you think that's still not worth it compared to starting with +1 Wisdom?
I hadn't even considered Unconventional Weaponry. That definitely opens up some options like the Asp Coil or Flickmace. My hesitation is that I'd have to give up Natural Ambition to take it, which pushes my feat progression back from Diverse Lore + Scroll Thaumaturgy at 1 to Scroll Thaumaturgy at 2 and Esoteric Warden/Breached Defenses at 4. On top of that, you guys are making a pretty convincing case for forgoing the second focus point and taking Breached Defenses instead. Do you think the weapon access is worth delaying the Thaumaturge feat chain?
Interesting that everyone seems to be so high on Tome. That was actually my original plan for level 5 before I started second-guessing myself with Mirror and Amulet. So that's a vote for Wand as a ranged backup? Wand and Tome seem like a pretty thematic combination. Do any of you have much experience with Mirror? Is it similar to Weapon in that it tends to look stronger on paper than it actually plays at the table?
I might be tunneling a bit on the Trip trait from the whip, because the Asp Coil, Flickmace, and Breaching Pike don't immediately stand out to me. Are you recommending those weapons primarily for their higher damage dice, or am I overlooking something that makes them especially strong on a Thaumaturge?
It's probably also worth considering the critical specialization effects. The flail, sword, and spear groups all have solid crit specs, although that only really comes into play if I stick with the Weapon implement. How much weight would you put on crit specialization when choosing between those weapons?
I think the party consensus is also to stick with one of the campaign-specific rare backgrounds for the in-town perks and mini-games, so I'm probably going to go that route as well
The point about Dexterity is interesting. My thinking was that the +1 DEX would at least give me +1 AC while I'm in breastplate for the early levels, plus a little help with Reflex and my backup starknife. Do you think that's still not worth it compared to starting with +1 Wisdom?
Seven dooms starts at level 4 no? You should be starting in full plate armor.
I might be tunneling a bit on the Trip trait from the whip, because the Asp Coil, Flickmace, and Breaching Pike don't immediately stand out to me. Are you recommending those weapons primarily for their higher damage dice, or am I overlooking something that makes them especially strong on a Thaumaturge?
Thaumaturge is stuck with 1h weapons and you don't ever really need the tome or wand in combat so you should be free to trip with your open hand as normal. The bigger damage die is the draw, yes.
That's true, but as per the campaign player's guide, we're starting with the short introductory adventure that awards some starting gear. Until we finish that, we'll be level 1 with just the standard 15 gp, so I'm not sure how much of this will matter initially. After that, I'm also not sure which method our GM is planning to use for gearing us up—either a lump sum of gold or the standard wealth-by-level item allotment.
As outlined in the Seven Dooms of Sandpoint Player's Guide, new 4th-level characters start by completing the introductory adventure with only the normal 15 gp. Afterward, the GM chooses one of two gearing methods: either 140 gp to spend freely on common 3rd-level or lower items, or the Pick Your Items method (one 3rd-level item, two 2nd-level items, one 1st-level item, plus 30 gp for consumables or additional 1st-level items). I'm not sure which option our GM plans to use yet.
I've made a few changes based on everyone's advice and wanted to see what people think. I switched from Weapon to Mirror as my first implement, changed my ability scores to STR +3 / DEX +0 / WIS +1 / CHA +4, picked up Breached Defenses at 4, and went Champion Dedication → Devout Magic (Lay on Hands) instead of taking the Might domain. I also grabbed Ancestral Paragon → Unconventional Weaponry to pick up the Asp Coil at 3. The build is now leaning more into battlefield control, positioning, monster knowledge, and support while keeping Lay on Hands as a strong defensive tool. Does this seem like a stronger direction for Seven Dooms?
Also picking up trick magic item and titan wrestler for skill feats, justice cause for a the arch
We've finished the (very brief but fun) introductory adventure, including the gearing portion. Our GM has been generous and is allowing us to make some adjustments to our builds before we dive into the main campaign. I'm now trying to decide on my reward selections for my STR Mirror Thaumaturge with Champion Dedication, and I'd love some input.
Current Build Highlights
STR-based Thaumaturge
Mirror implement (planning Tome at 5)
Champion Dedication → Lay on Hands
Asp Coil (via Unconventional Weaponry)
Scroll Thaumaturgy
Diverse Lore
Trick Magic Item
Breached Defenses
Reward Choice #1 (Choose One)
2nd-level common talisman
2nd-level common oil, poison, or Silver Salve
Two common 1st-level divine or primal scrolls
Two Minor Healing Potions
Reward Choice #2 (Choose One)
+1 weapon common
Suit of Full Plate
Common worn permanent magic item (2nd level or lower)
Leather case with three pieces of common magic ammunition or one common 2nd-level scroll
Reward Choice #3 (Choose One)
Wand of any common 1st-level spell
Any common worn magic item (3rd level or lower)
Formula for a magical tattoo or two uncommon 2nd-level (or lower) scrolls (GM approval)
Any combination of three common 4th-level (or lower) alchemical consumables
Automatic Rewards
75 gp
Two vials of Holy Water
One weapon of your choice:
+1 weapon common
Low-grade Cold Iron weapon
Low-grade Silver weapon
Given the build above, what would you prioritize? I'm especially interested in thoughts on the worn magic items, wand, scrolls, and consumables that pair well with Scroll Thaumaturgy and Trick Magic Item.
Right now I'm leaning toward some of the 3rd-level worn items, particularly the Thrower's Bandolier or Armory Bracelet, but I'm not sure if I'm overlooking something that would provide more value for a Thaumaturge going into Seven Dooms of Sandpoint. Any recommendations are appreciated