Traversal is awesome, but doesn't fix the fly-first ancestries

[Christopher#2411504]

Ancestries that are fly-first and only have a token Land Speed have issue: Many of the basic and skill actions are denied to them. As a solution, the Tandem Trait was added.

I want to clarify that the Tandem Trait is a awesome addition to the rules. I wish you added it to PF2 as well: At worst, it avoids a lot of repetition on wording. But adding it would also allow you to quickly find abilities that work well while swimming, climbing or flying.

However no matter how awesome it is, Tandeom did not actually fix the underlying issue. A Barathu or Contemplative melee character still cannot use Step, without spending extra resources to buff their land speed first. And Step is really just a stand-in for all the actions where you simply cannot add Traversal.

Wind Walker overcorrects and as a result can't be available before Level 5. I do not think it was a good addition. And ironcially it still fails to help with Step and any other actions that require a minimum land speed or use land speed, without using the Stride action directly.

The Problem
I was recently reminded that it is important to never start with a solution, but to always define what the problem is first. In this case the problem lies with a unspoken design assumption that PF2 made, way back when the Basic Actions, Skill Actions and the CRB were written.

That assumption is: "Land Speed will always be the primary speed."

In PF2, that holds true. Flight isn't usable as primary movement mode from level 1, so any flying Ancestry has a decent Land Speed. And while you added a few "Swim first" ancestries, they usually have two ways around that: The pretty common "you are worse at swimming, but have normal human landspeed" Heritage and the Land-Delver's Wheelchair. As far as I remember, Climb Speed isn't even on any ancestry by Default.

SF2 Ancestries like Barathu or Contemplative - who are fly first, with only a token 5ft Land speed - break that assumption. Traversal tries to help, but misses the underlying problem and can't be applied to all the cases.

My suggestion
My suggestion is a single, short sentence. But there is some balance question of where it should be written.

The sentence I would add is: "You have a Landspeed (Hover) equal to your fly speed."

That one sentence actually adresses the underlying problem, by giving you a land speed that is usable. It adresses the assumption directly. It deals with Step and anything else that uses land speed. And it doesn't break any existing actions to do so

There is a balance question on where it should appear:
- should it be a general rule?
- a Level 1 General Feat?
- a Level 1 Standardized Ancestry Feat?

If there are some worries about fly speed boosts making the number too large or that a "+10ft to all speeds" might double dip (setting your fly speed higher, copying fly speed to land speed, increasing land speed too), the wording could be "equal to your base fly speed" instead.

[Conscious Meat]

I'll just note that this issue does exist for PF2e as well, but primarily from the GM's perspective. There are creatures that rely entirely on a Fly speed and do not even have a ground speed such as the Will-o-Wisp, Air Wisp and Veiled Current.

[pauljathome]

I'm really not seeing the problem. If you want to take a character who can step in combat, take one with a speed of 10+. If you want to take a creature who can do that AND fly from L1 there are lots of options.

Being a floating gas bag has advantages and disadvantages. Lots of ancestries have disadvantages.

Given the huge numbers of ancestries and the common means of grabbing stuff from a different ancestry you can mechanically end up with a huge combination of traits that you want.

And if you care about flavour, then gasbags are just less agile in combat.

[Finoan]

Christopher#2411504 wrote:

I want to clarify that the Tandem Trait is a awesome addition to the rules. I wish you added it to PF2 as well:

I'm not sure what Tandem trait you are meaning in Starfinder2e. I will note that Pathfinder does already have a Tandem trait, but it has nothing to do with movement speeds or abilities. It is for the Summoner class and references actions where both the Summoner character and their Eidolon do something in conjunction at the same time.

[pauljathome]

Finoan wrote:

Christopher#2411504 wrote:

I want to clarify that the Tandem Trait is a awesome addition to the rules. I wish you added it to PF2 as well:

I'm not sure what Tandem trait you are meaning in Starfinder2e. I will note that Pathfinder does already have a Tandem trait, but it has nothing to do with movement speeds or abilities. It is for the Summoner class and references actions where both the Summoner character and their Eidolon do something in conjunction at the same time.

I think he meant the Traversal trait.

[NoxiousMiasma]

As someone who specifically built a barathu in the playtest to make sure you could have a functional character without grabbing the feat that gives you a land speed... mate, it works fine? SF2e's baseline assumptions mean Reactive Strikes (which themselves are even less common then they are in PF2e - only 27 creatures in Alien Core have one!) are less of a concern, and a flier can just skim low to the ground to maximise horizontal movement.

Like, if you're playing a melee character, make the sensible build decision and take Adaptable Limbs on your gasbag (and, uh, probably don't play a Contemplative that's going exclusively melee? Their entire thing is "all brains, no brawn" as a species, and they have no feat options that want to be in melee. Accept that your choice to play against type has consequences!)

[Theaitetos]

I suggest using the second part of the PF2e Ghost archetype's Floating ability:

Quote:

[…]

You can Leap, High Jump, Long Jump, and take similar actions, and use your fly Speed for any calculations that would normally require your land Speed.

I have always seen it ruled that this also works for Step and any other actions based on land speed.

[Driftbourne]

NoxiousMiasma wrote:

(and, uh, probably don't play a Contemplative that's going exclusively melee? Their entire thing is "all brains,

I'm imagining the movie Concussion being remade about Contemplative Brutaris players.

[Christopher#2411504]

Theaitetos wrote:

I suggest using the second part of the PF2e Ghost archetype's Floating ability:

Quote:

[…]

You can Leap, High Jump, Long Jump, and take similar actions, and use your fly Speed for any calculations that would normally require your land Speed.

I have always seen it ruled that this also works for Step and any other actions based on land speed.

I feel like the Ghost Archetype would work better if it just used a Hover Landspeed. Instead of that "you always fly, except not really" mess they have going on.

Hopefully a Book of the Dead Remaster can just pick up Hover.

[Christopher#2411504]

NoxiousMiasma wrote:

(and, uh, probably don't play a Contemplative that's going exclusively melee? Their entire thing is "all brains, no brawn" as a species, and they have no feat options that want to be in melee. Accept that your choice to play against type has consequences!)

Pidgeonholing Ancestries into specific classes or even just away from specific classes was one of the biggest design issue with older PF2. There is no reason for SF2 reimplement. And they definitely have been trying to avoid it.

PF2 only did it with the Ancestry Boost and Flaws. The 4th CRB errata added Alternate Ancestry Boosts as a base rule, which fixed that issue very handily. Something SF2 just copied wholesale. As a bonus, it actually allowed Paizo to write more Ancestries arrays with flaws. With the flaws being optional, Pidgeonholing is not a big worry anymore.

SF2 had more risks of pidgeonholing, but they avoided that well: Contemplative already has the Retorgrade Heritage, to make sure Athrophied isn't going to ruin any high bulk or 2H weapon build. There is no reason flight should be an issue for melee builds.

The fact they added Traversal and now Wind Walker makes it clear the designers are fully aware of the issues and that they are trying to fix it. I just think they might have missed the problem a bit, so all the solutions have been slightly off the mark.

[Driftbourne]

Christopher#2411504 wrote:

NoxiousMiasma wrote:

(and, uh, probably don't play a Contemplative that's going exclusively melee? Their entire thing is "all brains, no brawn" as a species, and they have no feat options that want to be in melee. Accept that your choice to play against type has consequences!)

Pidgeonholing Ancestries into specific classes or even just away from specific classes was one of the biggest design issue with older PF2. There is no reason for SF2 reimplement. And they definitely have been trying to avoid it.

If we ever get a Pidgeon ancestry, I would hope they excel at Pidgeonholing. Even a Retrograde Contemplative is still a big brain. A Retrograde Contemplative avoids Pidgeonholing, but I'd say the extra room it creates is no bigger than a duck.

As we get more ancestries, Paizo will likely have to take more risks to make a huge number of ancestries feel different. I wouldn't even mind a clone ancestry that starts off as a pregen with no player choices until then, level up. Then the clone can rebel against their design all they like.

[pauljathome]

Christopher#2411504 wrote:

Pidgeonholing Ancestries into specific classes or even just away from specific classes was one of the biggest design issue with older PF2. There is no reason for SF2 reimplement. And they definitely have been trying to avoid it.

You're kinda overstating things.

If you look at any PF2 class guide they'll rank ancestries. All ancestries are NOT created equal for all builds, not even close.

What PF2 (And SF2) do is to make just about all class/ancestry combinations VIABLE, although fairly often you'll be viable ONLY if you take a specific heritage or ancestry feat. But VIABLE isn't optimal.

For example, a tiny sprite is going to make an AWFUL thief rogue (no flanking). But a small sprite is fine, or you could make a ranged rogue.

Similarly, a 1/2 ling makes a SUPERB thief rogue. Stats in a perfect place combines with some wonderful feat support.

SF2 is pretty much in the same camp. If you want to make a Contemplative into a melee character its quite doable and you'll end up with a viable character. But you're going to occasionally get a reactive strike on you as you move instead of step. That is the cost of having the other cool stuff which was presumably why you chose to play a Contemplative in the first place (whether that cool stuff is flavour or mechanics doesn't really matter).

There are already a massive number of ancestries. Pick one that you find fun (again, mechanically or because of flavour), pick a class and you'll be able to make it work. Probably not perfectly but you'll be able to make it work.

[NoxiousMiasma]

A 5ft hover is also very much a side-grade to a regular land speed. Sure, you can't Step, but, crucially, you are never touching the ground. A hovering creature is immune to many forms of difficult terrain (uneven rubble, sticky mud, tangled cables) and hazardous terrain (caltrops, electrified panels, acid spills, so on), as well as letting you just... not trigger a bunch of hazards? No need to worry about pressure plates, unstable ground, or things that are triggered when you touch them!

[pauljathome]

NoxiousMiasma wrote:

A 5ft hover is also very much a side-grade to a regular land speed. Sure, you can't Step, but, crucially, you are never touching the ground. A hovering creature is immune to many forms of difficult terrain (uneven rubble, sticky mud, tangled cables) and hazardous terrain (caltrops, electrified panels, acid spills, so on), as well as letting you just... not trigger a bunch of hazards? No need to worry about pressure plates, unstable ground, or things that are triggered when you touch them!

That is pretty much all coming from the fly speed itself.

As far as I can see the hover is only useful in that it means you do NOT have to spend an action to actually fly if you don't want to move.

[NoxiousMiasma]

That's what I meant by "never touching the ground." All locomotion and positioning explicitly not getting the floor involved is very useful. Like, that's what you get instead of a regular land speed: being the reigning champion of The Floor Is Lava. (and if you really want to Step, grab Fleet at level three and then you're fine. If you're melee, you probably wanted that already)