Hi all,
As anyone who has seen my recent threads in Rules will know, I have a player in my AbV game who is playing a bard. And both he and I are both pretty dissatisfied with certain aspects of the class.
Specifically, for the purposes of this thread, I am talking about Composition spells like Courageous Anthem. It seems weird to me that you have to cast them every rounds rather than casting them once and sustaining them. For the at will ones, this is wonky but not a major problem, when things like fortissmo come into play it suddenly looks a lot worse. But OTOH, I do not want to overcompensate. So I am proposing the following:
- Instead of recasting a Composition Cantrip every turn, a bard can spend an action to Sustain it.
- If the Cantrip is modified by a Spellshape the bard must make a Performance check when they Sustain it. If they fail, the Cantrip is Sustained but it loses the effects of the Spellshape. If they critically fail, the Cantrip is not Sustained and cannot be restarted until the caster's next turn.
This will allow the aforementioned fortissimo to keep going for a while. But as I argued in the other thread, it provides a lower net bonus than Gang Up for a much higher cost (although TBF it has other other advantages), and Gang Up works forever. So I am not unduly worried.
But are there any other combinations I should be wary of?
I'm not sure what you find more wonky about recasting Courageous Anthem as opposed to sustaining it. There's very little functional difference between the two behaviors.
... It seems like the only practical thing you're talking about here is buffing fortissimo, but then I'm not sure why you're burying the lead so much.
Squiggit wrote: I'm not sure what you find more wonky about recasting Courageous Anthem as opposed to sustaining it. There's very little functional difference between the two behaviors. I know there's not much functional difference (at least for the at will elements), and said as much. But it is not the functionality. It is just wired to be stopping and restarting a performance every six seconds.
Squiggit wrote: ... It seems like the only practical thing you're talking about here is buffing fortissimo, but then I'm not sure why you're burying the lead so much. Not burying the lede: I am happy with the affect on fortissimo, but it will work with every Spellshape that affects Composition Cantrips - including the ones I am not familiar with. Those are what I am concerned about, and the reason for the thread.
I can agree that there's a bit of mental reconciliation that needs to happen to reframe the Bard's once-per-round compositions as a continuous, uninterrupted performance. The issue I'd see with the above, however, is that sustained effects last until the end of your next turn, which I think would be a significant mechanical buff to compositions: with this, there's a significant risk players would still not Sustain their compositions, but would instead cast a composition every two rounds to apply the benefits across most of that duration. I'm not sure if there's a way to bring Sustaining into compositions without reworking their mechanics overall.
glass wrote: Not burying the lede Did you know that "burying the lead" is actually an acceptable spelling? In fact, the word "lede" came about as in-house newspaper jargon as recently as the 70s, specifically designed to prevent confusion between the two identically-spelled "lead" (leed) and "lead" (led) in writing. "Lede" didn't even enter English dictionaries until the aughties, since it wasn't considered a real word until then.
Just a neat little fact I thought I'd share.
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Teridax wrote: I can agree that there's a bit of mental reconciliation that needs to happen to reframe the Bard's once-per-round compositions as a continuous, uninterrupted performance. The issue I'd see with the above, however, is that sustained effects last until the end of your next turn, which I think would be a significant mechanical buff to compositions: with this, there's a significant risk players would still not Sustain their compositions, but would instead cast a composition every two rounds to apply the benefits across most of that duration. I'm not sure if there's a way to bring Sustaining into compositions without reworking their mechanics overall. Thanks Teridax - I missed that detail because the bard IMC basically never benefits from his own anthem, so extending it to the end of his turn for free would make no difference. But may player's bard is not all bards - I'd imagine Warrior Muse bards would get a lot more use out of it.
Maybe I could say something like "The caster may expend their first action each turn Composition Cantrips for another round. This is similar to Sustaining the spell, except that the spell ends immediately if the caster does not use the first action in this way on any given turn."
glass wrote: Thanks Teridax - I missed that detail because the bard IMC basically never benefits from his own anthem, so extending it to the end of his turn for free would make no difference. But may player's bard is not all bards - I'd imagine Warrior Muse bards would get a lot more use out of it. Your Bard never benefits from their own anthems? Are they using Courageous Anthem and then just never casting anything that uses a spell attack? Because it applies to those.
The other, subtle change to this is that anthems are not auras: they don't follow the Bard around. They impact who was in the area when it was cast and that's it. Sustaining it RAW doesn't actually change that, so if you cast it and someone is out of range and then sustain it, they're still not getting it even though they're now in range. Most people in my experience don't actually run it this way and treat it like an aura. But it's an easy fix if you are running it RAW by having the sustain reapply range.
As for the Fortissimo part... it sounds like it'll work at your table, which is really all that matters. I would never do that at mine because the Bard is going to get a stack of Orchestral brooch and the Pick Fighter is going to use that +3 to crit everything into the ground.
Tridus wrote: glass wrote: Thanks Teridax - I missed that detail because the bard IMC basically never benefits from his own anthem, so extending it to the end of his turn for free would make no difference. But may player's bard is not all bards - I'd imagine Warrior Muse bards would get a lot more use out of it. Your Bard never benefits from their own anthems? Are they using Courageous Anthem and then just never casting anything that uses a spell attack? Rarely. And when they do, they generally miss by far more than one (or even 3).
Attack-roll spells are even more prone to doing nothing than save spells, and see my other thread for how they've generally got on with save spells.
Tridus wrote: The other, subtle change to this is that anthems are not auras: they don't follow the Bard around. They impact who was in the area when it was cast and that's it. Really? I never picked up on that. Now I am aware of it, I think I shall continue to ignore it - I am just not seeing the upside.
Tridus wrote: As for the Fortissimo part... it sounds like it'll work at your table, which is really all that matters. I would never do that at mine because the Bard is going to get a stack of Orchestral brooch and the Pick Fighter is going to use that +3 to crit everything into the ground. You must use some super-low AC monsters if a +3 status bonus is enough to reliably crit them.
Even if they could afford to check away 100 gp per encounter, which of course they cannot.
glass wrote: Really? I never picked up on that. Now I am aware of it, I think I shall continue to ignore it - I am just not seeing the upside. Yep. It's an emanation, not an aura. It goes up when you cast it and whoever got it then is who has it until its cast again.
It's pretty common to run it like an aura instead. Foundry has a macro that puts it up as an aura, and it's labelled as "usually good enough" because it's not RAW but it does the job (and is the easiest way to manage the effects since it's automated).
Quote: Tridus wrote: As for the Fortissimo part... it sounds like it'll work at your table, which is really all that matters. I would never do that at mine because the Bard is going to get a stack of Orchestral brooch and the Pick Fighter is going to use that +3 to crit everything into the ground. You must use some super-low AC monsters if a +3 status bonus is enough to reliably crit them.
Even if they could afford to check away 100 gp per encounter, which of course they cannot.
Or maybe you've never seen a high level Fighter in action in a strong group. ;) They have better proficiency than anyone else, that +3 puts them farther ahead, Agile Grace caps their MAP at -6, and Pick crits HURT.
Like, that Fighter's fourth attack in a round has higher accuracy than a 2h Barbarian's second attack. Give them a party that is also debuffing enemies and flanking and it gets gross. (Courageous Onslaught is also fun but you won't have that and Fortissimo at the same time, mercifully.)
In a group with strong team coordination, Fighters and Gunslingers crit a lot. It's why Fatal weapons can be really good for them.
(And yes, not every enemy is a solo severe boss, so there will be lots of things they can crit reliably.)
Tridus wrote: Or maybe you've never seen a high level Fighter in action in a strong group. ;) They have better proficiency than anyone else, that +3 puts them farther ahead, Agile Grace caps their MAP at -6, and Pick crits HURT. No maybe about it - this is the first fighter I have ever seen (unless there was one in a one-shot that I have forgotten), and he is level 8. So I am not going to have seen the effect of any level 10 feats.
I believe the fighter primarily uses a hammer. I do not think it is Agile, so he would not benefit from Agile Grace without swapping to a different weapon (although he could switch to a light hammer and still be in Group). He could not switch to a pick without losing the benefit of Fight Weapon Mastery.
Are there any feats to reduce MAP for non-Agile weapons?
(The thaumaturge uses a pick for some reason).
Tridus wrote: (And yes, not every enemy is a solo severe boss, so there will be lots of things they can crit reliably.) I don't have a copy of the character sheet handy, but I believe his attack bonus is +20 (+8 level, +6 Master, +5 Str, +1 item), with Gang Up + fortissimo potentially giving an effective +5 on top of that.
Against AC 24, he hits on anything except a nat 1 and crits on a very respectable 9. But that is against a Low AC for an on-level monster. The high AC is 30, meaning he hits on 5s and crits on 15s. Still not too shabby, but far from the near-guaranteed crits people have been talking about.
And those are with his first attack - once MAP kicks in, he is critting the Extreme AC on a nat 20 same as everyone else, and the Low one on a 14.
I have not done an in-depth analysis of the distribution of ACs within a level, but my gut feeling is that High and Extreme ACs are more common than Moderate and Low ones.
We had a session last night, so yesterday afternoon I sent the bard's player the following email:
I, by email wrote: Hi [bard player],
I do not know if you had a chance to check out [this] thread linked below, regarding house-ruling Composition Cantrips (hereafter CCs) to be less wonky (and fortissimo composition [better]). But since we have a session in a few hours, I need to firm things up a bit. I still need to work out the exact wording, but I the general gist is:
- You can maintain CCs from round to round, rather than recasting each round, by spending your first action of the turn).
- If you do so, and one is modified by a Spellshape effect (apart from lingering composition obviously), you can make a Performance check to keep the modification going as well.
- If you fail the check (or do not try), the CC continues but reverts to its normal effects without the benefit of the Spellshape. If you crit fail, the CC ends and cannot be restarted until your next turn.
The upshot is that you can get a few rounds out of fortissimo, but it is not guaranteed (and it does not depend on applying multiple Spellshapes to the same spell, which might be wonky or broken in other circumstances). It also means that, if you have used Harmonise, you can keep both CCs going for a single action (as long as you can make the check to maintain the Spellshape). So you will no longer need to spend all three actions on CCs multiple rounds in a row!
Two things I still need to figure out (if either of them come up tonight I will make a ruling on the spot, which might not end up being the final version):
1. If you get an extra benefit from a crit on the initial Performance check for a CC a Spellshape thereto, do you need another crit to keep that extra bonus?
2. How to handle lingering composition.
Thoughts? Does that work? Would it be enough for you to keep fortissimo composition rather than swapping it out?
The bard did use fortissimo composition, but the fight ended the turn after he started it so the ability to extend it was irrelevant - with two lower-level creatures, it was probably the easiest fight they've had in a long time. They actually did scythe through this one!
It turned out to be a short session (and they did some non-combat stuff) so that was the only fight of the night.
I said in the email (and it is still true) that I need to figure out the exact wording and a few edge cases. But overall I am happy with how it is taking shape. That said, there has been no real testing yet, so I will see how it goes over the next couple of sessions and report back.
An effect of this that I don't see mentioned above is that Sustain has neither Manipulate nor Concentrate effects. Which means it potentially safer and easier to sustain the cantrips than to cast them, so is a direct buff to the cantrips themselves. That makes a melee bard a bit more appealing. (Or conversely, it is a nerf to creatures with Reactive Strike type abilities, and to ones which can inflict Stupefied, making them less effective vs groups with bards.)
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