OHoi gals and pals, I’m back again after my depression on a touch attack rogue that was shot down on standard(pun) action economy
I’m asking here for takes and ideas for a build I’ll never get to play most likely.
Brawler strangler archetype opens up for easily landing sneak attacks, but getting to the next level is multi classing into 3/4 classes.
There is a few things that keeps me guessing if I’m wrong, or the build is just to far from optimal to keep a satisfying character for a soft core min/max’er.
With that note;
The build I thought of would go with 2 levels snake strike+strangler brawler, and then vivisectionist alchemist and as a strength build to avoid massive feat investment.
But… is this enough on a long run?
-cmb; grab (+4), mr.crabby familier/trumer(+2), obviously mutagen, enlarge person or polymorphs (+*), heroism (+2), resinous skin (+2)
-and further, invisibility for opening, access to fly spells, early buffs to physical stats bulls(cmb+cmd) and cats (cmd, and crippling strike discovery will add up.
Furthermore it seems CMD can be a pain to increase, and at some point, monsters will gain absurd bonuses.
Vanilla rogue does come to mind with offensive defense talent, to massively increase the CMD once Damage is given, but more muticlassing will severely hurt “spell” progression.
Combat expertise would actually also help here if our cmb keeps up.
Strangle will deal sneaky damage both on damage AND pinning opponents, so crits and weapon dice will hopefully not be too much of an issue.
Taking power attack and getting a one/two handed side arm, when feats slots is available, will give a little freedom when crisis arises
Greater grapple is far away for a alchemis, meaning tentacle grab and enlarge person will be needed to carry for a long time.
Armor issue is bad at start, but I believe in latter levels as enchantment/mutagen bonuses will be needed light armour and buckler will carry its weight, since feats are dear and multiclassing is hampering…
7. any further ideas?
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Maneuver builds all tend to have the same fundamental issue: In any given encounter, they either:
- Work Far Too Well (You grapple the BBEG before he gets a chance to act and keep him locked down until the rest of the party kills him) - or -
- Don't Work At All (Foes are practically or actually immune to grapple, or maybe they just die so quickly that grappling isn't worth the trouble).
(25point buy) str 16(+2race), 14 dex, 14 con, 14 int, 12 wis, 8 cha. Going alchemist level 1-2 or snake bite strangler 1-2 first is probably a question about party and campaign.
I know strangler for some reason doesn’t even have improved unarmed strike, but that must be a annoyance to be overcome.
Level 1 feat would be power attack if brawler or improved unarmed strike if alchemist
Azothath; I fully agree that the archetype is bad and seems full of holes.
I would bail brawler after double dipping it for additional sneak attack on grapple and a better AC so we at least try not to die once grappling.
Early level rocking a Morningstar two-handed or a long spear would be choice against any goblin within range, or a sling for range with strength bonus.
One-shooting mooks is better and easier for a strength build, but once level 2 brawler is reached, maintaining grapple will deal 3d6 sneak attack even on pinning, on damage an additional 1d3+4 + 1d6 spiked armor (early this will still only come up when an opponent needs to be locked down.)
Ninja will come to the problem as Taja points out, at some point we are left invisible in a corner while our flying opponent is laughing at us.
Then again gaining Offensive Defense rogue talent would be back on the menu.
(Crossing this with alchemist would turn us even more mad the monk O.o’)
Taja; I like your points, but if the end boss can be reached in the first round with a move action, most melee builds would lock him down.
Alchemist will at some point aid us against annoying flyers, and bringing a side-arm for two-handing with backup power attack will hopefully keep us helpful for the party against freedom of movement and incorporeals.
I am starting to questioning if gauntlet as main weapon or going amulet of fisting would be a better choice with a main natural attack Tentacle discovery from alchemist :-/
But gauntlet is cheaper and latter levels +1-5 enchantment bonus to CMB, from Brawling weapon enchantment is costly and hard to come by.
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Taja; I like your points, but if the end boss can be reached in the first round with a move action, most melee builds would lock him down.
Alchemist will at some point aid us against annoying flyers, and bringing a side-arm for two-handing with backup power attack will hopefully keep us helpful for the party against freedom of movement and incorporeals.
Resisting typical attacks and spells is fundamental NPC design, but resisting a dedicated grapple build is often not taken into consideration, and the typical response when it is taken into consideration is Freedom of Movement or some similar immunity source as using a standard action to escape a grapple is basically a losing struggle even if they actually succeed on every escape check.
Personally, I briefly considered going the grapple route on 'Taja the Bloodrager' using her 16th level arcane bloodline ability to activate Beast Shape IV upon entering Bloodrage to transform into a Huge Squid (Giant) with the Grab and Constrict abilities, but I decided against it as it was too messy, too complicated, and simply just far too late in the campaign.
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Common spells that cause issues;
Buffering Cap [head] $2000.
• Grease:C1.
• Liberating Command:T1.
• Obscuring Mist:C1 (concealment at 5ft).
• Vanish:I1 (invisibility).
• {Burst Bonds:K1.}
• Blur:I2 (concealment).
• Darkness:K2 (concealment).
• Invisibility:I2 (invisibility).
• Blink:K3 (concealment).
• Displacement:I3 (concealment).
• Twisted Innards:T3.
• {Freedom of Movement:A4.}
• {Defensive Grace:T5.}
• a couple of polymorphs (elemental, ooze, etc).
It's not the sneak attack damage that is the issue, bur rather the 'grappled into inaction' itself, so I'm just going to eliminate most of your list as not directly relevant.
Grease: A good defense, but only if you use it before you get grappled.
Liberating Command: A good response to being grappled, but only if you have actually invested in the Escape Artist skill as the competence bonus will only carry you so far.
Burst Bonds: Still using a standard action with a (only) slightly higher chance of success, but requires you to be an Inquisitor and your opponent to fail their Fortitude save (which is probably pretty good on a grappler). Best case scenario, you are still trading a spell slot and a standard actions with someone who can just grapple you again on their next action.
Freedom of Movement: Yep, completely negates a grappling build.