| Indi523 |
The Wizard's Counterspell Feat states that the wizard must expend a prepared spell which is the same spell as the one they are trying to counter and then they get a counteract roll.
This seems to me to be so unlikely given the numerous spells. Especially since a wizard only has so may memorizations available.
So can we assume that a wizard with the Counterspell feat and the Trick Magic Iteam feat can make an attempt to Trick Magic Item the prepared spell slot he is expending to power the Counterspell to make it act as if it were the spell attempting to be counterspelled.
They are still expending a spell preparation. The success with the Trick Magic Item would just make it more useful an ability.
What is everyone's thoughts on this.
| Teridax |
I would suggest playtesting this if you can, as that can help give a more direct impression of the impact. YMMV, but in my opinion counterspelling is one of those mechanics you don't actually want to be too good: in another tabletop game we probably all know about, Counterspell is a thing you can do for any spell, just by expending a spell slot, and combat against spellcasters often devolves into pressing the "nope" button against each others' spells (including noping that nope button), which leads to a lot of wasted resources and turns and a lot of associated frustration. The fact that it won't happen often is in my opinion a good thing, and encouraging the Wizard to research a particular opponent's spells and prepare them just for the purpose of counteracting them to me is a good way to lean into the class's fantasy.
Where I can agree that there's disappointment, however, is in the effectiveness of counteract checks: if you're fighting a higher-level spellcaster, your counteract check is likely to fail, and because their spell will almost certainly be of a higher rank than the spells you can cast, your spell will fail to counteract theirs. Thus, Counterspell can easily be ineffective during some of the few times where it comes up. If you think Counterspell is effective when it comes up, then don't mind this, but if not, you could always play with some kind of a bonus to your counteract check, or even a bump to the check's degrees of success, so that when the opportunity comes up to counter an opponent's spell, your caster will be very likely to counteract it.
| WatersLethe |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I rule that having Dispel Magic prepped counts as having "the same spell" prepared. This means they can load up on Dispel Magic if they want to be counterspelling a lot, or they can research their enemies to memorize the correct spells so they have more options on hand.
| Indi523 |
I rule that having Dispel Magic prepped counts as having "the same spell" prepared. This means they can load up on Dispel Magic if they want to be counterspelling a lot, or they can research their enemies to memorize the correct spells so they have more options on hand.
That could work but I would suggest one has to make Dispel Magic a Heightened spell with the increase in rank meaning it can counterspell spells at ranks higher than just 2 using the rank it is heightened to for the counteract check.
| Indi523 |
YMMV, but in my opinion counterspelling is one of those mechanics you don't actually want to be too good: in another tabletop game , Counterspell often devolves into pressing the "nope" button against each others' spells
Where I can agree that there's disappointment, however, is in the effectiveness of counteract checks: if you're fighting a higher-level spellcaster, your counteract check is likely to fail
The Counterspell Feat for a wizard is a React which to me I believe everyone only get's one a round. I am not as worried regarding it becoming counterspell ping pong for that reason. You get to counterspell and they can try to counter your counterspell and that's it.
You do get Clever Counterspell at 12th level that expands the type of spells you can give up which does make it more useful but many campaigns end at 12 or a little above so do you get to use it.
As for the Counteract rules I am not that upset. A wizard giving up a fist rank spell on a critical success can counter up to a 4th level spell (three more) and on a success can counter one level higher which is 2nd. It is as I read it the ranks of the spell that matter. If there is not rank you halve the level of the caster.
My problem is currently at first level the issue is it never happens expect for maybe mages countering each other's Force Barrage spell but in Pathfinder 2e I am not as certain that is a must have spell as the other game.
For me if someone has the Trick Magic Feat allowing them a role to Trick the Spell into thinking the correct spell is given up is not that abusive as another check has to be made.
The other thing might be to allow a wizard to give up a scroll for the spell as opposed to a spell slot since magic is given up. This could make mages abusive but only if the party has unlimited gold so it could be dealt with.
I am good with rare, my issues is that RAW suggests never. There is a path where it is useful at high level but only as a prerequisite to the Clever Counterspell feat.
Though allowing Dispel Magic to count as a wild card would help if you made dispel magic a heightened spell.
Not sure
| Teridax |
The Counterspell Feat for a wizard is a React which to me I believe everyone only get's one a round. I am not as worried regarding it becoming counterspell ping pong for that reason. You get to counterspell and they can try to counter your counterspell and that's it.
That is the counterspell ping pong. Characters only get one reaction in D&D 5e, and that's enough for Counterspells to start flying all over the shop. PF2e at least has the benefit of Counterspell itself not counting as a spell, so you can't nope that nope, but the fundamental problem remains the same: if your "nope" button is overly broad, that's going to lead to lots of turns where essentially nothing happens, because someone's spent a resource to cast a spell and you've spent a resource to make sure that spell doesn't get cast, and vice versa. It's fine when it's a thing that occasionally happens, not so much when it happens all the time.
| Fleck6969 |
This is what we have for our house rules for Counterspell every spellcaster has access to it. We have not had any issues with this.
Counterspell Feat 1
When foe Casts Spell and can see its manifestations, can use own magic to disrupt it.
Trigger: A creature Casts a Spell
Requirement: Have an unused spell prepared.
[RA] Expend a prepared spell. Attempt Counteract at Spells Rank vs triggering spell.
If prepared spell expended matches triggering spell's Tradition, +1 Counteract check.
If prepared spell is Dispel Magic or a similar spell, +2 Counteract check.
If prepared spell matches triggering spell exactly or specifically states can use to counter triggering spell (Bane and Bless), +3 Counteract check