Hi,
One of my players wants to build a UC Summoner with a grapple-based eidolon. I’ve never really played a grapple build, so I’m having trouble understanding a few things.
The eidolon will have the base form Serpentine, Grab (Bite), Grab (Tail Slap), and Constrict.
(If possible, please link the relevant rules/FAQ/errata.)
1- For the feat Improved grapple , it increases CMD against being grappled, but does it work when a grappled target tries to escape the grapple?
2- When using the feat Greater grapple, you can make 2 checks but only need one success to maintain the grapple. Does that mean I can use my move action to deal damage and then my standard action to deal damage again? And does Constrict deal damage on each successful damage maneuver? So does every damage option deal (bite damage) ×2?
3- When you are controlling the grapple, you gain a +5 bonus on subsequent rounds to maintain the grapple. This doesn’t affect CMD, right?
4- The grab ability says that you take a –20 penalty to avoid gaining the grappled condition yourself, but I don’t see anywhere in the grappled condition or the grapple rules that you can’t grapple someone else while already grappled. For example, on turn 1, if it full attacks: bite someone -> free grab, tail slap -> free grab, how does that work?
5- When you are controlling the grapple, it says: "Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple."
Does that mean the target doesn’t take a penalty to escape the grapple, but the grappler takes a –2 to CMD (because of the –4 to Dex)?
6- The grabability states: “Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks to start and maintain a grapple.” Does this bonus also apply to the second check from Greater Grapple? Since technically, if the first check succeeds, the second one is used to pin, deal damage, or move the target, rather than to maintain the grapple.
7- Maintaining a grapple seems difficult against melee characters. Even if the grappler is specialized (feats, traits, features), against a fighter or full BAB class it doesn’t take much effort to escape. Is there a way to boost CMD (other than size, STR, and DEX), or reduce the bonus the target has to escape?
8- Here is a sample of the bite attack tell me if everything seems good with my math :
Bite[Grab] : 2d6+6 STR+ 1d6 Acid+4Power attack [Large Eidolon+Improved Damage + Energy attack(Acid)]
If hit -> Grapple Check -> success = Grappled -> Constrict Deal bite Damage so 2d6+6 STR+ 1d6 Acid+4
(In combat maneuver it is said that CM are attack rolls so PA should apply right since i apply the penalty to the CMB of the check?)
Next turn still grapple cause target fail to escape
Move action to maintain Grapple check+5 -> success -> Damage option -> 4d6+12+ 2d6 Acid+8 -> Standard action Grapple check+5 -> success -> Damage option -> 4d6+12+ 2d6 Acid+8
9- Does feat like Body Shield that make a grapple combat maneuver check deal constrict damage on success?
1- Yes
Improved Grapple wrote: You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to grapple you. break grapple wrote: If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature Although the opponent can choose to act normally, but I think the bonus still applied to the CMD.
4- you can grapple multiple targets.
The feat Grabbing Drag said "You cannot use this feat if you are grappling two targets", so I think it implied that a grappled character can attempt to grapple another target.
happykj wrote: 4- you can grapple multiple targets.
The feat Grabbing Drag said "You cannot use this feat if you are grappling two targets", so I think it implied that a grappled character can attempt to grapple another target.
Yeah i know but everywhere i saw people saying that you must take the -20 to grapple someone else but i dont know why people are saying that since you can grapple multiple people and the grappled conditions doesnt say you cant make a maneuver or attack on someone else i saw the -4 for humanoid if you dont have a free hand but its a giant snake not a humanoid so if its grappled with it Bite attack and it attack with another natural attack (the tail one in my example) then how does it work? do i get malus (like the -20 and why ?), if i have greater grapple then i can maintain both grapple or one check is enough for all grapple ?
10- If the natural attack/unarmed strike does special effects are they applied on the Damage option from grapple or the constrict? Like noxious bite since i'm still biting the target for the grapple & constrict does it add the +1 acid and make the target make a save or get nauseated?
You can have multiple grapplers in a grapple. Usually attacking/grappling someone else is not an option, as it's not one of the actions allowed for 'If you're grappling'. There is a chance for if you break or escape a grapple, where instead of escaping, you can choose to become the grappler, but if you choose not to do that, you can instead take an action that does not require two hands. Such as cast a spell or attack a creature adjacent to you. You could use this action to try and grapple another creature. You would have the penalties for only using one hand (if you're a humanoid) and possibly the Dex or other penalties. Most often, this happens when other creatures 'join' into an already existing grapple and try to Aid one or the other (though in most cases, just attacking the grappler you don't like is probably more effective, but situations vary).
Only creatures with the Grab or similar abilities really get the choice to take a –20. A snake that hits with its bite deals bite damage and can choose to grapple. If it does normally, then it is grappled just like any other creature grappling would be. If it chooses to take a –20 to its grapple check, then whatever limb or part it used is considered 'being used', but it is not considered grappled and does not have the penalties for grappling. It cannot use its bite in this case, since its mouth is being used to hold the creature it's grappling (it would still deal constrict on a successful roll. It would either have to let go (or in some bigger creatures' case, swallow the creature in its mouth) or be moved apart from the creature in some way. If it had a tail slap, then it could use that, it still has to take any actions to maintain the grapple however.
Adamarh wrote: 10- If the natural attack/unarmed strike does special effects are they applied on the Damage option from grapple or the constrict? Like noxious bite since i'm still biting the target for the grapple & constrict does it add the +1 acid and make the target make a save or get nauseated? In most cases, it would not. You may be biting or holding a creature in your mouth or claws, but you aren't actually doing bite or claw damage. It's usually considered unarmed strike damage. Things like poison or disease normally shouldn't apply if they are delivered because of the limb.
That's not to say it's always the case, and some GMs can make rulings for other abilities that should apply for merely touching or being touched by a creature. Things like Burn or Acid from touching a fire elemental or an ooze would fall into that category, even though grappling may not be listed in the ability specifically. This is because the rules are general for combat and not meant to necessarily apply to every combat maneuver or branching action. But noxious bite for sure shouldn't in this case. It would apply to the initial bite that starts the grapple. But for the other cases, like burn or acid, it may vary based on specific creature and GM.
there's a grapple flow chart that is two pages. Find it and print it double sided on 60# paper. That is probably the best way to see the process.
Also check out the PF1 build guides @ ZG. Brawler, Maneuver topics will be of interest.
Constriction, Pounce are the desired abilities/feats.
Remember the eidolon and summoner share MIBS, so a neck slot item on the summoner fills the neck slot on the eidolon.
Azothath wrote: there's a grapple flow chart that is two pages. Find it and print it double sided on 60# paper. That is probably the best way to see the process.
Also check out the PF1 build guides @ ZG. Brawler, Maneuver topics will be of interest.
Yeah i know about this flow chart (maybe you are talking about another one)but its doesnt really answer any of my question since my question are more about what bonus can i apply to CMD/CMB and damage than the flow of action, it doesnt say anything about feat like Greater Grapple either.
For the PF1 guides, ZG is Zenith Games? Anyway i read some brawler guide left and right but it doesnt help my question since it always say deal the damage of unarmed strike (cause most of the time they use brawler) but they dont talk about which bonus can you add to damage.
Advice
post on Class Guides, bards & wizards, Items that can save you, 2025/09
any attack bonuses will apply to CMB unless they are specific to a type of attack as weapons can be used for some CMs{search on "weapon"}. Going barehanded you run into the usual natural/IUS issues of few items and high cost.
In a grapple you can inflict damage with a natural, IUS, light, 1-handed weapon rather than your normal grapple damage.
I'd point you to feats but the Guides do a better and more complete job.
Ok so it said "Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. "
That mean like feat like Weapon focus(Bite) would add bonus to the CMB check to grab, you say
Azothath wrote: Advice
In a grapple you can inflict damage with a natural, IUS, light, 1-handed weapon rather than your normal grapple damage.
If i grapple with a bite attack that mean that when i maintain the grapple i can use another natural attack like tail slap, claw or a light weapon to deal damage but i can also use the main attack(Bite) to deal the damage, so if i follow everything that is said, the CMB check count as an attack bonus, bonus that apply to attack bonus apply to the attack, i can deal damage from this attack or another that fit int Nat,IUS,Light,1H weapon, so the effect that affecte the attack should work on the Damage part, so if i choose an attack with poison it would proc the poison, power attack add the penalty to CM check and add damage to all melee damage rolls, pretty sure that grapple damage count as melee damage so it should work.
Sadly i still have other questions :/
And you link the ZG guide but they mainly are hitting build
for the other what i found with other thread and guide is :
1-happykj answered it and other thread seems to go in that sens
2- In the grab universal ability it said "If the creature does not constrict, each grapple combat maneuver check it succeeds at during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constrict and grapple damage" so yeah each success on maintaining deal constrict damage + as said earlier damage from a nat att, IUS, light, 1-handed weapon
3- Sadly from what i read it doesnt work on CMD, but maybe i'm blind.
4- Still trying to answer this one
5- Still trying to answer this one
6- Still trying to answer this one
7- Found out that some bonus to AC increase CMD, so i will look at Azothath item list pretty sure i can find some
8- Answered in this post (or maybe i'm dumb AF)
9- Still trying to answer this one
10- Yes noxious bite, energy strike would work if i choose the Bite to deal the grapple damage since noxious would be part of the natural attack damage.
Adamarh wrote: Ok so it said "Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. "
That mean like feat like Weapon focus(Bite) would add bonus to the CMB check to grab, you say
Azothath wrote: Advice
In a grapple you can inflict damage with a natural, IUS, light, 1-handed weapon rather than your normal grapple damage.
If i grapple with a bite attack that mean that when i maintain the grapple i can use another natural attack like tail slap, claw or a light weapon to deal damage but i can also use the main attack(Bite) to deal the damage, so if i follow everything that is said, the CMB check count as an attack bonus, bonus that apply to attack bonus apply to the attack, i can deal damage from this attack or another that fit int Nat,IUS,Light,1H weapon, so the effect that affected the attack should work on the Damage part, so if i choose an attack with poison it would proc(?) the poison, power attack add the penalty to CM check and add damage to all melee damage rolls, pretty sure that grapple damage count as melee damage so it should work.
...
you have muddled the english a bit so let us use a concrete example. format: attack +N (damage dice +bonus crit *multiplier)BPS type dmg.
Example: med hmnd BAB +4, Bull Str for Str 20(+5), Cat Grc for Dex 20(+5), Weapon Focus longsword +1(+0), +2 longsword for Total +12 (1d8+5+2 crit19+ *2)S dmg, bite Total +9 (1d4+5 20 *2)BPS dmg, CMB +9, CMD 24.
Grapple with Bite CMB 1d20+9. Can do bite (1d4+5)BPS dmg OR longsword (1d8+7)S dmg.
cannot grapple with sword so you are stuck with bite CMB.
Trip with Bite CMB +9.
Trip with sword CMB +12.
you can apply poison to the blade using an action, and make your poison use check, then IF you do damage with the longsword add the poison save vs damage/effect to the first hit.
Power Attack at BAB +4 results in -2 (+4)dmg bonus to attacks/CMB.
For two handed weapon damage grapple means you need to use two hands or take -20 (0) penalty and can attack two targets, but in this case one assumes the contradiction means it is okay to have one hand free with weapon in the other but still using both for CMB. Thus 1hnd damage only. A few GMs might let you do 2hnd dmg but I don't read it that way. “any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform."
CRB FAQ Grapple, 2011
Adamarh wrote: 4- The grab ability says that you take a –20 penalty to avoid gaining the grappled condition yourself, but I don’t see anywhere in the grappled condition or the grapple rules that you can’t grapple someone else while already grappled. For example, on turn 1, if it full attacks: bite someone -> free grab, tail slap -> free grab, how does that work? Grab grants two benefits.
First, you can start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
The second benefit is not about being able to grapple while being grappled. It’s about being able to move while grappling, not taking a –4 penalty to Dexterity, not taking a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and non-grappling combat maneuver checks, being able to take actions that requires two hands to perform (not pertinent to your eidolon, but whatever), and being able to make attacks of opportunity. Note that a grappler without the Greater Grapple feat normally has to choose to move half his speed as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple, in lieu of dealing any damage, trying to pin or tie up the opponent being grappled, etc.
Also note that Grab allows you to start a grapple as a free action. Absent feats that improve your action economy, maintaining a grapple remains a standard action. An Eidolon with Grab on three different natural attacks effectively has three free attempts to grapple an opponent while also dealing damage with each of its attacks. Alternatively, it could attempt to grapple three different creatures, but in the next round it would have to release the grapple on two of them, on account of only having one standard action with which to maintain a grapple. If that same Eidolon had Greater Grapple, it could maintain the grapple on one enemy with a standard action, and could do the same on a second enemy with a move action, but would have to release the third enemy.
Quote: 5- When you are controlling the grapple, it says: "Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple."
Does that mean the target doesn’t take a penalty to escape the grapple, but the grappler takes a –2 to CMD (because of the –4 to Dex)?
Both creatures normally gain the grappled condition. Both creatures gain the penalties in question. Yes, that means that, absent any class features, feats, or special abilities that state otherwise, the creature being grappled gains an edge over the creature grappling it.
Quote: 6- The grab ability states: “Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks to start and maintain a grapple.” Does this bonus also apply to the second check from Greater Grapple? Since technically, if the first check succeeds, the second one is used to pin, deal damage, or move the target, rather than to maintain the grapple. Only if in your game a grappler with the Greater Grapple feat can use a standard action to initiate the grapple and a move action to maintain it in the same round. After that, however, only one of the two grapple checks that grappler can make each round is used to maintain a grapple, and thus only it would receive the +4 bonus from Grab.
Quote: 9- Does feat like Body Shield that make a grapple combat maneuver check deal constrict damage on success? Yes. Normally, the action used and benefit gained by that feat are clearly defined. It would not allow a grappler to both, e.g., damage a grappled target (which requires a standard action, move action, or swift action, depending on the grappler's feat selections) and use it as cover. Constrict, however, clearly states that a creature that possesses said special attack can deal bludgeoning damage to the grappled enemy "in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check."
And look, this isn't a case of a feat in a splat book being overlooked by a core book. Body Shield was printed in Ultimate Combat. The people writing up the Constrict ability only had so many grappling feats to consider. I genuinely doubt what you're asking constitutes an unintended loophole.
ok thanks for your answers and time, now i can help my player for this part.
A side note that I think some people miss with grab, you can still just start a normal grapple. The grab ability has size limitations and requires you to land a hit to get the free grab. In a lot of cases, your pet is going to have a way better grapple check than attack bonus, especially since grab is +4 to grapple. But also being larger is a bonus to grapple while a penalty to attack.
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