Caroming Charge is far too strong as written

[benwilsher18]

I'm concerned that as written Caroming Charge is going to cause players to optimize all of the fun out of the Daredevil class, by just building around only using this feat every turn forever. Let me explain:

Let's assume our Daredevil has +4 Strength, and 25 movement speed. At level 2 once he has picked up Caroming Charge, he has the ability to do this every single turn:

Daring Stunt - Stride next to an enemy and perform an Athletics maneuver (probably Shove to deal Stunt damage if possible, but Trip if not).

OR just Strike if they are already next to an enemy, for probably 1d8+4 damage with a longsword, warhammer, etc.

Then once they have MAP, they use Caroming Charge - Stride 25 feet twice (or even 35 feet if they start both Strides next to a Prop), dealing a guaranteed unreduceable 1d6+4 damage (average 7.5) to an unlimited number of targets as long as they are within 2 Strides distance.

The damage ceiling for this damage is massive if there are multiple targets. Compare it to the best cantrip in the game Electric Arc, which does 2d4 damage (average 5) to 2 targets within 30 feet with a basic Reflex save for example, and and you can see how strong Caroming Charge is. Press is not a downside at all as this doesn't have any kind of roll involved. I'm also not including that RAW Caroming Charge doesn't seem to prevent you from affecting the same target multiple times properly.

By level 6, the Daredevil now deals 2d6+4 damage with Caroming Charge. Electric Arc is now dealing 4d4, which is still lower damage, and the Daredevil now can have Fleet and potentially Tailwind online to expand how many creatures they can target. On top of that, they now have Rushing Strike - which they can use with a D12 weapon like a greatsword if they want. So now every turn they can Stride, Strike with a weapon and deal 2d12+4 damage, and then run around everywhere dealing a guaranteed 2d6+4 damage to multiple foes.

This definitely needs to be reworked. Personally I think there should be two changes:

1. It can only effect each target once. This is probably intended anyway and just not written into the feat for some reason.
2. Creatures get a basic Reflex save against the higher of your Athletics or Acrobatics DC (or maybe just Class DC?) against the damage, and if a creature critically succeeds then you stop moving.

[shroudb]

About your 1:

The way it's written it already only applies once per target regardless how many times you pass through them.

Quote:

and you deal stunt damage to each enemy you move through

It doesn't matter how many times you move through them only IF you moved through them.

[benwilsher18]

shroudb wrote:

About your 1:

The way it's written it already only applies once per target regardless how many times you pass through them.

Quote:

and you deal stunt damage to each enemy you move through

It doesn't matter how many times you move through them only IF you moved through them.

I would lean towards interpreting it like that too, but I have already seen several posts and comments on Discord and Reddit interpreting it otherwise - so it could use more precise language just to make it 100% clear. You do move twice during the activity after all.

[Claxon]

It could probably use some wording to clarify that the damage is only once per target per Caroming Charge.

And while this theoretically can deal a lot of damage, in much the same way a fireball could if every square was filled with an enemy, it doesn't scare me or mean much to me as a GM.

Especially in an extreme boss battle. Good luck using this as your main tactic against the party level +3 boss and his party level lieutenant. The two enemies present will enjoy all the tickling you're doing.

That said, it does probably need to have either an attack roll or save included with like almost everything else in the game.

[benwilsher18]

Claxon wrote:

It could probably use some wording to clarify that the damage is only once per target per Caroming Charge.

And while this theoretically can deal a lot of damage, in much the same way a fireball could if every square was filled with an enemy, it doesn't scare me or mean much to me as a GM.

Especially in an extreme boss battle. Good luck using this as your main tactic against the party level +3 boss and his party level lieutenant. The two enemies present will enjoy all the tickling you're doing.

That said, it does probably need to have either an attack roll or save included with like almost everything else in the game.

What you're calling "tickling" is roughly on par to Sneak Attack damage though, which you know... requires both an attack roll to achieve it, and also has the prerequisite of the enemy being off-guard, and to trigger it more than once a turn requires you to interact with MAP in some way. Being able to both Strike or trigger your Stunt damage against a boss with your first action without MAP, and then guarantee Stunt damage again with Caroming Charge will actually be quite effective damage if that boss has high AC or saves, all things considered.

Also, a fireball affecting a 20 foot burst can still affect way less squares than this ability can in theory (stacking movement speed is pretty easy in this game), plus it deals damage to allies and this does not, and it uses a resource. This might do less damage than a max-rank spell, but as it is resourceless it should be compared to cantrips or stuff like kineticist impulses lacking the Overflow trait, both of which it is WAY stronger than.

[Claxon]

It's equivalent to the bonus damage sneak attack does, but you're missing the weapon damage with all the runes that increase that damage.

[Gaulin]

Caroming charge also seems to be against the spirit of the class, or at least how I picture it. Low, reliable damage shouldn't be a mainstay of a risk vs reward class. This should have a save associated with it, with a stronger effect on a crit failure and a penalty to the daredevil on an enemy's crit success.