Bard Question
In short, I have a bard player that wants to make scroll with Annotate Composition. It says he can use either fortissimo/lingering composition to modify the annotated composition.
He basically wants to know if he can:
1. Make a scroll of Courageous Anthem + Lingering Composition.
2. Use Fortissimo Composition then cast from the scroll himself.
Basically making it Courageous Anthem + Lingering Composition + Fortissimo Composition
To be clear, we're pretty sure this doesn't work because "reasons", but we don't fully understand those reasons. Rules Discord gave us these reasons but couldn't give in depth details.
Reason 1: "Can't have 2 spellshapes affecting the same spell." Spellshape rules says you lose the action if you don't immediately cast a spell there-after, not that you necessarily cannot have 2 spellshapes affecting 1 spell.
Reason 2: "Using the annotate scroll item isn't casting a spell, so you can't spellshape it." But it says "This produces the effects of the composition as though the activating creature had Cast the Spell." It even capitalizes the Cast a Spell part. Isn't that considered casting a spell?
Regardless we aren't allowing it, we just want to understand why we couldn't if we tried. This is more about learning, not power-gaming.
Any help understanding is greatly appreciated, please and thank you!
SilentCandle wrote: Bard Question
In short, I have a bard player that wants to make scroll with Annotate Composition. It says he can use either fortissimo/lingering composition to modify the annotated composition.
He basically wants to know if he can:
1. Make a scroll of Courageous Anthem + Lingering Composition.
2. Use Fortissimo Composition then cast from the scroll himself.
Basically making it Courageous Anthem + Lingering Composition + Fortissimo Composition
To be clear, we're pretty sure this doesn't work because "reasons", but we don't fully understand those reasons. Rules Discord gave us these reasons but couldn't give in depth details.
Reason 1: "Can't have 2 spellshapes affecting the same spell." Spellshape rules says you lose the action if you don't immediately cast a spell there-after, not that you necessarily cannot have 2 spellshapes affecting 1 spell.
Reason 2: "Using the annotate scroll item isn't casting a spell, so you can't spellshape it." But it says "This produces the effects of the composition as though the activating creature had Cast the Spell." It even capitalizes the Cast a Spell part. Isn't that considered casting a spell?
Regardless we aren't allowing it, we just want to understand why we couldn't if we tried. This is more about learning, not power-gaming.
Any help understanding is greatly appreciated, please and thank you!
producing the Effects of something is not the same as doing the something.
There are several abilities in the game that produce the effects of X as if you are doing it, and they are clearly separated by actually doing the X.
As an example, "having the effects of a flaming rune" is not the same as putting a flaming rune on a weapon, nor does it has its limitations (number of runes on the weapon).
Got it Shroudb, I've seen items like that (though can't remember off the top of my head) that say the produce the effects of this spell or that spell. Or the item says you cast this spell, etc.
So Charlatan's Cape, is that item activation count as casting the spell? Is that affected by things like Stupefy? Or does it need to have "Cast a Spell" in the activation?
I'm also assuming Annotate Composition isn't affected by Stupefy when you read it from the scroll, since it's not casting a spell.
shroudb wrote: SilentCandle wrote: Bard Question
In short...[/i]
producing the Effects of something is not the same as doing the something.
There are several abilities in the game that produce the effects of X as if you are doing it, and they are clearly separated by actually doing the X.
As an example, "having the effects of a flaming rune" is not the same as putting a flaming rune on a weapon, nor does it has its limitations (number of runes on the weapon). Forgot to ask in my above response, what's an ability that gives the flaming rune like that, as an example?
And does the Conductive Weapon spell work like that, or no?
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SilentCandle wrote: Got it Shroudb, I've seen items like that (though can't remember off the top of my head) that say the produce the effects of this spell or that spell. Or the item says you cast this spell, etc.
So Charlatan's Cape, is that item activation count as casting the spell? Is that affected by things like Stupefy? Or does it need to have "Cast a Spell" in the activation?
I'm also assuming Annotate Composition isn't affected by Stupefy when you read it from the scroll, since it's not casting a spell.
I'm afraid using a scroll is Casting a Spell, the specific activity, and is definitely affected by Stupefy.
QuidEst wrote: SilentCandle wrote: Got it Shroudb, I've seen items like that (though can't remember off the top of my head) that say the produce the effects of this spell or that spell. Or the item says you cast this spell, etc.
So Charlatan's Cape, is that item activation count as casting the spell? Is that affected by things like Stupefy? Or does it need to have "Cast a Spell" in the activation?
I'm also assuming Annotate Composition isn't affected by Stupefy when you read it from the scroll, since it's not casting a spell.
I'm afraid using a scroll is Casting a Spell, the specific activity, and is definitely affected by Stupefy. Well that's a big source of our confusion. It's either:
1. Using the Annotate Composition scroll is "Casting a Spell" and affected by both Stupefy and the ability to use spellshape on it.
OR
2. Using the Annotate Composition scroll is NOT "Casting a Spell" and is unaffected by Stupefy and cannot be further altered with spellshape.
It has to be one or the other, right? Because I don't think the game wants you to treat it as "casting a spell" for the purposes of stupefy but not for the purposes of being able to (further) spellshape it.
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Annotate Composition does not create a usual scroll that you activate with the Cast a Spell activity.
"Any creature that can read the language you used when annotating your composition can Activate the Item by spending a single action, which has the concentrate trait. This produces the effects of the composition as though the activating creature had Cast the Spell."
No real Cast the Spell here. So no spellshape and no stupefied effect, as opposed to a usual scroll.
The Raven Black wrote: Annotate Composition does not create a usual scroll that you activate with the Cast a Spell activity.
"Any creature that can read the language you used when annotating your composition can Activate the Item by spending a single action, which has the concentrate trait. This produces the effects of the composition as though the activating creature had Cast the Spell."
No real Cast the Spell here. So no spellshape and no stupefied effect, as opposed to a usual scroll.
Ahh, I should have looked deeper than the scroll rules; that one is on me. Disregard my post; it's not relevant to this situation.
As The Raven Black said.
But Charlatan's Cape is worse, it has:
Activate—Puff of Smoke [two-actions] (manipulate); Frequency once per day; Effect You cast translocate.
I'd say that the first thing takes the precedence here: it really is just an Activate an item, and 'you cast' is an inaccuracy.
This is not the case as with scrolls (common magic ones), staves and wands where it's said that their Activate is Cast a Spell, and it's really you who do it.
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Got it, thank you very much Errenor, Shroudb, Quidest, and especially Raven Black!
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