Kineticist's Torrent in the Blood is OP?


Advice


It allows new save against poison or disease. Without any restrictions other than 10 min cooldown on each target. I mean in combat it's not so big of advantage above others heal effects. But outside of combat - ability which allows free posion and disease healing without any repercussions (because falied save does not worsen the stage) is too big of a deal in my opinion. Especially against some virulent longlasting deseases. Or maybe i am missing something why it is not that strong?

Right now I nerfed this impulse for kineticist in my Seven Dooms for Sandpoint party so it can only affect each poison or desease only once similar to Cleanse Affliction spell. Note that kineticist is not only healer in the party, he is in fact secondary heal (with more focus on AOE damage and crowd control/buffs via water-air gate) after bard with Medic Dedication. My thought on this is that with unlimited desease healing he takes the bread of the bard, which invested her spellslots into desease and poison healing as well as primary party healer. And also completely nullify all impact of any nasty longlasting deseases which party can meet.

Am I wrong to nerf this ability? I tried to search other discussions and seems like community thinks that TitB is somewhat mediocre ability. And nobody even consider it as strong desease/poison healing.


IMO, it's not OP at all.

Here are my reasons why.

First, in combat. It's one more save. That's all. It's beneficial, yes, as it does not worsen the poison on a Failure, but it still would on a Critical Failure, and the 30' cone would heal all creatures, not just allies, inside it. Given the cooldown until it can be used on a given person again, you could easily hit people who don't need the healing to help an ally with Poison damage, and put them on cooldown for the healing as well.

Outside of combat, the cooldown makes it very not OP. Why? Because most poisons last 6 rounds. Now, not all do, and on the ones that last a long time, it is very helpful. But most do, and so all it grants is one bonus save.

With diseases, yes, it could hit OP levels, in theory, and I do agree with your proposed house rule of a total of one use of Torrent in the Blood per affliction.

Another couple of things to consider before thinking it's OP. First, it only affects one poison or disease, so if the ally has two or more on them, it only hits one, and then the ally is on cooldown. Second, many enemies that can apply poison can just reapply poison. This makes the timing of when to use Torrent crucial, and giving PCs decision points is, IMO, a good thing


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The "point" of a Kineticist is essentially spending a whole class feat to get something like a spell as essentially a cantrip. If you go nerfing those at-will abilities so that they don't overshadow casting in the few cases where being able to do something at-will actually matters, it's a real bummer.

The ability does essentially guarantee removing a disease before it can progress, so if you need to nerf it, I would consider making its ability to treat a disease once per eight hours (matching the frequency of the Treat Disease activity, but taking a few actions instead of requiring working for eight hours straight). The ten-minute limit is longer than most poisons run, so it's just not relevant there.


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Lia Wynn wrote:
it does not worsen the poison on a Failure, but it still would on a Critical Failure

No? Critical Failure is definitely "a failed save". When they want to exclude this, they use something like "on a Failure (but not Critical Failure)".


QuidEst wrote:

The "point" of a Kineticist is essentially spending a whole class feat to get something like a spell as essentially a cantrip. If you go nerfing those at-will abilities so that they don't overshadow casting in the few cases where being able to do something at-will actually matters, it's a real bummer.

The ability does essentially guarantee removing a disease before it can progress, so if you need to nerf it, I would consider making its ability to treat a disease once per eight hours (matching the frequency of the Treat Disease activity, but taking a few actions instead of requiring working for eight hours straight). The ten-minute limit is longer than most poisons run, so it's just not relevant there.

Well, if kineticist was only one or primary healer I probably would not be bothered about it's ability to remove deseases with such ease, which overshadow spells. But the main reasoning here is that party has a main healer, and she has spells and invested in medicine. Granted that bard unlike witch or cleric could not swap spells in their repertoir each day, whats the point to have such spells if kineticist can do all the same but better?

Making it once per 8 hours is a good advice, I will consider that approach


Sogranar wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

The "point" of a Kineticist is essentially spending a whole class feat to get something like a spell as essentially a cantrip. If you go nerfing those at-will abilities so that they don't overshadow casting in the few cases where being able to do something at-will actually matters, it's a real bummer.

The ability does essentially guarantee removing a disease before it can progress, so if you need to nerf it, I would consider making its ability to treat a disease once per eight hours (matching the frequency of the Treat Disease activity, but taking a few actions instead of requiring working for eight hours straight). The ten-minute limit is longer than most poisons run, so it's just not relevant there.

Well, if kineticist was only one or primary healer I probably would not be bothered about it's ability to remove deseases with such ease, which overshadow spells. But the main reasoning here is that party has a main healer, and she has spells and invested in medicine. Granted that bard unlike witch or cleric could not swap spells in their repertoir each day, whats the point to have such spells if kineticist can do all the same but better?

Making it once per 8 hours is a good advice, I will consider that approach

I would certainly let the Bard choose to retrain Cleanse Affliction if they don't think they're getting good value out of it anymore, and I'd handwave the usual training costs and time. (Spontaneous casters can freely retrain a spell on level-up anyway, and often forget the option.)

It's worth noting that Torrent in the Blood won't remove the lingering effects of a disease or poison, so if the Bard needs a substitute spell, Restoration, Clear Mind, and Sound Body are all good choices.

However, Cleanse Affliction can guarantee improving the condition of a poison or disease right away, while heightened versions also get a counteract check to remove it entirely. Even if you don't change Torrent in the Blood, Cleanse Affliction is still pulling its weight against poison.


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I would say that you are absolutely not wrong to nerf only it into allow a rerolled save once per affliction, As Paizo themselves errated a similar ability to do just that.

War of immortals 2025 Spring errata wrote:

Page 47: Update the One Moment till Glory transcendence of victor’s wreath to more closely match some similar abilities, to have less of a downside in certain situations, and to be less powerful at ending long-term effects outside combat.

“You rally your allies, carrying them from the brink of disaster to the verge of victory. Each ally in your aura can immediately attempt a new saving throw with a +2 status bonus against one ongoing negative effect or condition currently affecting it that required a save. Use the result of the new save to determine the outcome of the effect, unless the new save would have a worse result than the original save, in which case nothing happens. Each ally can gain this benefit against a given effect only once.”


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NorrKnekten wrote:

I would say that you are absolutely not wrong to nerf only allow a rerolled save once per affliction, As Paizo themselves errated a similar ability to do just that.

War of immortals 2025 Spring errata wrote:

Page 47: Update the One Moment till Glory transcendence of victor’s wreath to more closely match some similar abilities, to have less of a downside in certain situations, and to be less powerful at ending long-term effects outside combat.

“You rally your allies, carrying them from the brink of disaster to the verge of victory. Each ally in your aura can immediately attempt a new saving throw with a +2 status bonus against one ongoing negative effect or condition currently affecting it that required a save. Use the result of the new save to determine the outcome of the effect, unless the new save would have a worse result than the original save, in which case nothing happens. Each ally can gain this benefit against a given effect only once.”

That's an ability with no cooldown, no restrictions on what it can be used on (including things like permanent curses or urgent things like the Dominate spell), that gives a bonus on the save, and that is level 1 instead of 6. I wouldn't really consider it that similar of an ability myself.

Or, put another way, if it's limited to once-per-effect, it would be appropriate for it to affect anything, not just poisons and diseases.


Yet the main issue OP adresses is the same, Given enough time Torrent in Blood WILL remove any and all diseases and long duration poisons. Effectively eliminating all longterm afflictions that arent curses from the game (same as one moment till glory since it doesnt specifically target curses)

Or rather, even if the disease is only removed on a save of 19 on the dice that still equates to a 50/50 chance to reduce the stage atleast once within the hour. Theres still probably 4-8 more hours left on the day. Which for long term afflictions really does mean several dozens of attempts before the natural save happens again.

If you think once per effect is to much of a nerf then I would also see it as reasonable that you cannot benefit until you have done your next save against the affliction. The problem after all is that while the feat is ok against poisons with 10 minute intervals, it basically guarantees removal of anything that has a 1-hour interval or longer.


NorrKnekten wrote:

I would say that you are absolutely not wrong to nerf only it into allow a rerolled save once per affliction, As Paizo themselves errated a similar ability to do just that.

War of immortals 2025 Spring errata wrote:

Page 47: Update the One Moment till Glory transcendence of victor’s wreath to more closely match some similar abilities, to have less of a downside in certain situations, and to be less powerful at ending long-term effects outside combat.

“You rally your allies, carrying them from the brink of disaster to the verge of victory. Each ally in your aura can immediately attempt a new saving throw with a +2 status bonus against one ongoing negative effect or condition currently affecting it that required a save. Use the result of the new save to determine the outcome of the effect, unless the new save would have a worse result than the original save, in which case nothing happens. Each ally can gain this benefit against a given effect only once.”

This is exactly how I would nerf it. The idea that you should just have "unlimited cleanse affliction until it succeeds" is ridiculous. Against slow acting poisons and most diseases its a hard counter. Even someone actually specialized in this with the relevant Medicine feats can't do anything like this, and casters would have to burn a ton of high rank spell slots.

It can activate once per stage of the affliction would also be better.


One Moment till Glory on release was "attempted" to be balanced around the fact that failed saves exacerbated the effects already on you.But that felt horrible so they removed the downside and the fact it trivialises long duration effects when time is plentiful.

Otherwise the only other thing that I can recall gives "unlimited Cleanse Affliction", is Affliction mercy and ofcourse whenever the alchemist has Contagion Metabolizer. But Affliction Mercy feels like a level 2 feat in comparison to Torrent in Blood, And unless the alchemist is a Chiurgeon theres not that many levels where Contagion Metabolizers are effective.

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