When a character uses Taunting Strike are they *using* the Taunt Action as well?
Does that mean that a character uses Taunting Strike and with Group Taunt they get to pick three targets to be taunted?
Does a character who is Raging lose the ability to use Taunting Strike and Armored Counterattack? Shouldn't those feats then have the Concentrate trait as well?
Does a character with Shielding Taunt and Group Taunt choose three enemies when they raise their shield?
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>When a character uses Taunting Strike are they *using* the Taunt Action as well?
-Yes, but it's modified by the Taunting Strike: "you Taunt the target"
>Does that mean that a character uses Taunting Strike and with Group Taunt they get to pick three targets to be taunted?
-No. "you Taunt the target".
>Does a character who is Raging lose the ability to use Taunting Strike and Armored Counterattack? Shouldn't those feats then have the Concentrate trait as well?
-No, you can use them as they don't have Concentrate trait. But Taunts inside of them don't work. No, they shouldn't, you are free to use or not to use them as you like. Combined activities in the game don't get traits of subordinate actions (and shouldn't).
>Does a character with Shielding Taunt and Group Taunt choose three enemies when they raise their shield?
- No. "then Taunt a creature".
Errenor wrote: >When a character uses Taunting Strike are they *using* the Taunt Action as well?
-Yes, but it's modified by the Taunting Strike: "you Taunt the target"
>Does that mean that a character uses Taunting Strike and with Group Taunt they get to pick three targets to be taunted?
-No. "you Taunt the target".
>Does a character who is Raging lose the ability to use Taunting Strike and Armored Counterattack? Shouldn't those feats then have the Concentrate trait as well?
-No, you can use them as they don't have Concentrate trait. But Taunts inside of them don't work. No, they shouldn't, you are free to use or not to use them as you like. Combined activities in the game don't get traits of subordinate actions (and shouldn't).
>Does a character with Shielding Taunt and Group Taunt choose three enemies when they raise their shield?
- No. "then Taunt a creature".
Group Taunt does not have an action, it's not discrete like Elf Step. "When you use Taunt". By your logic from answer #1 if they are Using Taunt then they get to pick 3 targets. If they are not USING Taunt then the action doesn't have the concentrate trait. Likewise by your logic when someone uses Spellstrike it doesn't provoke Reactive Strikes because the Spellstrike doesn't have the Manipulate trait. The Spellstrike can't be stopped by the Silence spell because it doesn't require speaking.
As much as I'd love for it to work like you say (my current character build depends on it) there are logical and lexical inconsistencies in your explanation.
This is an official rules question, I need the PFS answer for this so I'd LOVE to have a weigh-in from the authors or devs, but if anyone else can point out any other explicit interaction that accounts for this?
That concentrate trait on Taunt doesn't even make sense to me. Smashing your weapon on your shield and screaming provocatively seems less "concentratey" than giving explicit trained orders and those don't have the Concentrate trait...
By the way, a Taunting Strike without using Taunt is just a Strike with Flourish. Worse in every possible way.
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Yes they are using taunt, Errenor never said this wasn't the case however as the text for these activities do say what is considered viable targets for the taunt.
"You Taunt a creature" or "Make a strike, if it hits, You Taunt the target". Its not "Raise shield, then Taunt" nor is it "Make a strike, Then taunt"
So you are absolutely using Taunt but RAW there are limits to what the these taunts can target. In the case of Taunting Strike, well you can only strike a single target, So when it tells you to "Taunt the target" you litterary only have a single target for the taunt.
If you want PFS/Developer weigh in, you are sadly out of luck as they do not respond directly to the forums.
The best I can tell you is that we have a split concensus between "The abilities say singular creatures.. so singular creatures is the intention" or "It assumes taunt by default targets a single creature so it was written that way"
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Do note that most rules questions do not have a specific PFS campaign answer, and the whole campaign fundamentally runs on individual GMs running their tables by their best understanding of the rules.
There's no ambiguity about the subordinate action Taunt having the Concentrate trait, so that should be consistent. Whether Group Taunt applies is a question of specific rules overriding general rules and you will likely see table variation in which rule is considered more specific, because that is something resolved by GM judgement, not by any written detail.
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I think most of this is explained in the paragraph for Subordinate Actions.
Player Core pg. 414 2.0 "Subordinate Actions" wrote: An action might allow you to use a simpler action—usually one of the Basic Actions—in a different circumstance or with different effects. This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but it's modified in any ways listed in the larger action. For example, an activity that tells you to Stride up to half your Speed alters the normal distance you can move in a Stride. The Stride would still have the move trait, would still trigger reactions that occur based on movement, and so on. The subordinate action doesn't gain any of the traits of the larger action unless specified. The action that allows you to use a subordinate action doesn't require you to spend more actions or reactions to do so; that cost is already factored in.
Purplefixer wrote: As much as I'd love for it to work like you say (my current character build depends on it) there are logical and lexical inconsistencies in your explanation. No inconsistencies at all, read the rule which NorrKnekten quoted.
Purplefixer wrote: This is an official rules question, I need the PFS answer for this so I'd LOVE to have a weigh-in from the authors or devs, but if anyone else can point out any other explicit interaction that accounts for this? You can try PFS forum. You still won't get definite answer, but you could get some opinion of PFS organizers. Maybe.
Purplefixer wrote: That concentrate trait on Taunt doesn't even make sense to me. Smashing your weapon on your shield and screaming provocatively seems less "concentratey" than giving explicit trained orders and those don't have the Concentrate trait... It's a game. With somewhat arbitrary rules. But also Taunt is NOT "Smashing your weapon on your shield and screaming rovocatively". Only one class in the game can do it with it having specific effects, it's a special skill.
Purplefixer wrote: By the way, a Taunting Strike without using Taunt is just a Strike with Flourish. Worse in every possible way. So what? Who cares? Don't use it then. You are not entitled to the best possible circumstances in the game in all cases.
Purplefixer wrote: Errenor wrote: >When a character uses Taunting Strike are they *using* the Taunt Action as well?
-Yes, but it's modified by the Taunting Strike: "you Taunt the target"
>Does that mean that a character uses Taunting Strike and with Group Taunt they get to pick three targets to be taunted?
-No. "you Taunt the target".
>Does a character who is Raging lose the ability to use Taunting Strike and Armored Counterattack? Shouldn't those feats then have the Concentrate trait as well?
-No, you can use them as they don't have Concentrate trait. But Taunts inside of them don't work. No, they shouldn't, you are free to use or not to use them as you like. Combined activities in the game don't get traits of subordinate actions (and shouldn't).
>Does a character with Shielding Taunt and Group Taunt choose three enemies when they raise their shield?
- No. "then Taunt a creature".
Group Taunt does not have an action, it's not discrete like Elf Step. "When you use Taunt". By your logic from answer #1 if they are Using Taunt then they get to pick 3 targets. If they are not USING Taunt then the action doesn't have the concentrate trait. Likewise by your logic when someone uses Spellstrike it doesn't provoke Reactive Strikes because the Spellstrike doesn't have the Manipulate trait. The Spellstrike can't be stopped by the Silence spell because it doesn't require speaking.
As much as I'd love for it to work like you say (my current character build depends on it) there are logical and lexical inconsistencies in your explanation.
This is an official rules question, I need the PFS answer for this so I'd LOVE to have a weigh-in from the authors or devs, but if anyone else can point out any other explicit interaction that accounts for this?
That concentrate trait on Taunt doesn't even make sense to me. Smashing your weapon on your shield and screaming provocatively seems less "concentratey" than giving explicit trained orders and those don't have the Concentrate trait...
As the rest of the posters pointed, but to make it a bit more clear how and why it works that way:
While an Activity doesn't inherit the traits of the subordinate actions, the subordinate actions themselves still carry them.
So, as a simple example:
Sudden Charge:
Sudden Charge doesn't have either the Move or the Attack Trait itself as an ability.
But the Strides within the Sudden charge have the Move Trait (and thus may provoke Reactive Strikes) and the Strike within it still has the Attack Trait (and thus progresses and uses MAP).
Similarily, when you do something like a Taunting Strike:
It has neither the Attack nor the Concentrate trait by itself, but the Strike will have the Attack Trait (and thus progresses and uses MAP) and the Taunt will have the Concentrate Trait (and thus cannot be used while raging).
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