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Based on this thread, I observed that among all arcane casters, the ones that tended to draw criticism were prepared arcane casters specifically: arcane Sorcerers and Summoners were fine, but Maguses, Inscribed One Witches, and Wizards are generally thought of as problematic in some form or another. Specifically:
As it so happens, these also all happen to be Pathfinder's current spellbook casters, i.e. casters who prepare from the limited selection of a spellbook (or familiar, in the Witch's case) instead of their entire spell list as would an Animist, Cleric, or Druid. This got me thinking: what if spellbooks were turned from a limitation to an asset? In particular, when the topic of prepared casters comes up, that often comes with the suggestion of giving those prepared casters spell substitution by default. Thus, the suggestion would be:
I think originally, the limitation of spellbooks was imposed because the arcane and occult lists were thought to be too versatile to be given full preparation access, but over time every spell list has received so many diverse additions and improvements that even divine and primal casters can do many things outside their usual purview, and so I don't think the limitation holds as much currency anymore. Although the above change wouldn't necessarily fix all of these classes' problems or automatically bring them up to par with strong alternatives, it could add to their versatility and make spellbooks a means of quickly swapping out to a select few, favorite spells, giving those classes more flexibility within the adventuring day as well.
Additionally, I think the above kind of change could work with those casters in a variety of unique ways:
This would likely need a bit of readjusting of other mechanics and some playtesting to make sure these classes don't suddenly go nuts in terms of sheer versatility, but if this works, it could potentially make these classes feel especially flexible, rather than exceptionally rigid. Because you wouldn't need a spellbook mechanic if you're preparing from the arcane or occult list, the upcoming Necromancer could thus easily be a prepared occult caster without the need for their dirge. Stuff to watch out for off the top of my head:
And that's about what I've got on the subject. Has anyone else considered this kind of change to spellbook casters at their table?
I agree that the difference between Prepared casters, whom have full access, and Prepared casters whom are limited to known spells is a significant class difference which isn't really strongly addressed. I think originally the Divine list was supposed to be a generally weak list, but with boosts of select spells by relevant Domains, would make them excellent with healing and various buffs, and debuffs with some specific thematic other abilities which could be tied back to choices and their original choice of deity. Druids I think were given the same benefit, less because of Primal being bad, but historically druids being similar to clerics. I think they likely felt that Druids didn't need the boosting of other spells to 'augment' their more limited list.
The spontaneous classes, don't have as much of a problem being able to select from their entire list, because, of course, they don't get their whole list, they get a 'preset' number of spells they have to choose out of the large list. As the list gets bigger, they don't get more spells, they just have more competition in what spells to pick to have.
I honestly wish that clerics and druids started with only a subset of their spells, even if it was more than your average wizard or other such classes had as known spells.
There would be the option to give wizards or all prepared spellcasters spell substitution, and it doesn't seem like a bad option, and is simple save that it eliminates an existing choice(one some feel is too mandatory). But you could even further and potentially allow the prepared caster fill their spell slots with the spells they want, and allow them to cast any spell from a slot they have that they haven't used that encounter, as long as they haven't cast more spells of that level today. I.e. the difference being if you picked a magic missile, a flaming hands, and a heal, with your three slots, in your first encounter you could cast one, two or three of those spells. In your second encounter, you would have the same selection, but if you had already cast one spell, your second encounter, you'd only be able to cast two of the spells (any two). And if you'd cast two spells, you'd only have one left (but for the encounter it could be any of the three). Granted, doing this takes away a lot of what makes a spontaneous caster supposed to have a strength, so it would seem like they should get something. I actually wonder if spontaneous casters need some way to cast spells not in their main known set more easily in exploration (or more importantly downtime) without having to sink money into consumables. Something like a non-combat slot, that requires longer to cast, but gives them access to the ability to know and cast other spells in the background.
Honestly, I'd dislike taking learning new spells from a wizard. They are supposed to go out and encounter new spells, and learn them, not know them from simply being a wizard. Removing the restriction of them needing to learn spells would actually be a Nerf on the flavor of the class in my opinion. The selection of what spells the wizard knows is, and should be important in my opinion. But I can understand why others looking at it from a mechanical stance may feel it is unfair, so I'm at least sympathetic of the idea of wanting to get rid of that limitation. But rather than making it a bonus, I'd suggest you try to find ways where it is a trade-off, rather than specifically an asset.
Another quick though, what if:
You offer spell substitution to all prepared casters.
But Wizards keep their 'School' spell slot. With a 'special' ability attached to it. They wizard can spontaneously use one of their other prepared spellcasting slots to cast their slotted school spell of the same level if they so choose. (they can also later in the day substitute their school spell to a different spell if they wish, even if they used a different slot to cast that spell) This would allow the caster to prepare less likely used spells as backup, and can count on using them as one of their school spells if those prove a better use. It doesn't step completely on the spontaneous spell casters ability, but it opens up the wizards flexibility some more which may help it lean into preparation of flexibility.
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I can agree that no longer adding spells to spellbooks would feel like a flavor nerf, though I think it would be at least mechanically justified given that spellbook spells would no longer define which spells you can prepare, so much as which spells you can prepare quickly in the day. I also think one of the underlying issues is that spellbooks can be highly variable: if the adventure doesn't throw spellbooks your way or give you the time or gold to learn spells, the mechanic is useless, but if you happen to play for a long time and get the time and resources to copy lots of spells, you can eventually end up with a massive spell list. I'd personally like to shorten those extremes so that each part of those classes feels more consistently relevant.
I can also agree with limiting Clerics and Druids (and also Animists) to a smaller subset of spells: not only have the divine and primal lists gotten a lot more versatile since 2e's release, the fact that they keep expanding means the day-to-day flexibility of those classes keeps increasing, thereby increasing their power. Applying the same to prepared arcane and occult casters would put them in a similar situation, but in that respect would at least equalize them in day-to-day versatility as a result.
I do like the idea of letting prepared casters cast more flexibly from their spell slots, as I do think Vancian prepared spellcasting often ends up being very inflexible in one-shots and scenarios where preparing spells every day doesn't really bring a significant advantage. Allowing a Wizard to cast their prepared curriculum spells using any other spell slot is an idea I find really appealing, because it would make the Wizard's curriculum more important in a manner that would also be a benefit, rather than a limitation. Generally, making the Wizard's school and spellbook feel like a bonus rather than a malus is the name of the game here, and anything that contributes towards that is worth trying out in my opinion.
I like that idea as well. Giving spellbook spells an elevated status in various mechanical ways would allow the Wizard's spellbook to feel even more special, and the same could apply to the Magus's own spellbook or the Witch's familiar. This I think is one of the reasons why I'd like those classes to prepare more easily from their spellbook, as that would make those spells a bit more special. It's also why I don't think those spellbooks should remain allowed to grow indefinitely, though, because there's always the risk of a Wizard with a full spellbook having vast amounts of that kind of power, or too little if they don't transcribe many spells.
Indeed, it would devalue Learn a Spell in that respect, though it would reduce its function to the same as for every non-spellbook caster. An alternative, though, could be to use the Learn a Spell activity to swap spells in your spellbook, so that it'd still have a use there as a form of quicker retraining.
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I think over the by now decades the idea of what class does spells in what way and why has drifted. Perhaps drifted a whole lot faster in PF2 than before.
For me one of the key elements of the "wizard fantasy" is that a wizard goes out into the world to learn new magics and is really excited to get hold of a defeated rival's spellbook. If you just knew all the spells already it'd take a lot of the wind out of those sails.
But it's already a bit busted in PF2. The "Learn Spell" activity can also be done by talking to someone who already knows the spell, doesn't require it be the same tradition. So a wizard can just find a druid buddy who automatically knows all the common primal spells. And then just take notes on all the spells that happen to be on the overlap of the arcane and primal list.
The way that clerics and druids automatically know all their common spells also seems like a bit of an archaism to me. Back when, a fair bit of those spell lists were really really circumstantial things. Not spells that you'd normally use when adventuring, but things that you might use to run a temple as a social organization, or to position yourself as the mysterious person in the wood who's awakening animals. A lot of that stuff has been turned into rituals instead (which helps trim the spell lists down to stuff that makes sense during encounters).
My big dream is that by the time of PF3 we'll mostly migrate to everyone using spontaneous casting, but that classes like the wizard have a better ability to switch a few spells from their repertoire during the morning.
It's already pretty rare that you switch a majority of your prepared spells. Usually you just make a few tweaks. Often you can't really predict what you're gonna face, so you pack a fair amount of generic spells that work well against any kind of enemy. I don't think the supposed advantage of the wizard of being much more versatile and preparing the perfect silver bullets (compared to a sorcerer) is really happening. In fact it's more likely that the sorcerer sometimes happens to have the silver bullet in their repertoire and just keeps pumping it out of every possible slot.
My big dream is that by the time of PF3 we'll mostly migrate to everyone using spontaneous casting, but that classes like the wizard have a better ability to switch a few spells from their repertoire during the morning.
It's already pretty rare that you switch a majority of your prepared spells. Usually you just make a few tweaks. Often you can't really predict what you're gonna face, so you pack a fair amount of generic spells that work well against any kind of enemy. I don't think the supposed advantage of the wizard of being much more versatile and preparing the perfect silver bullets (compared to a sorcerer) is really happening. In fact it's more likely that the sorcerer sometimes happens to have the silver bullet in their repertoire and just keeps pumping it out of every possible slot.
I'm of a similar mind. I'd quite like magic to be obtained through feats in future editions, but I'd also like a quick-retrain mechanic where instead of leveling up, every party member each gets to retrain one feat on the spot immediately after achieving a certain milestone, like beating a significant encounter or solving an important puzzle. This could, in my opinion, give characters more flexibility in the adventuring day, as well as offer a reward akin to leveling up in a manner that can be given out more frequently without permanently increasing the party's power level or complexity. In such an environment, the Wizard could perhaps shine by being able to swap out their magic even quicker, perhaps even during encounters by casting directly from their spellbook.
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I'm intrigued by the idea of spellbook-based casters spending an action to interact with their (worn or held) book to switch a prepared spell. Yeah, that's spell substitution on steroids, but it would finally drive home the point of wizards really being the most adaptable. You'd still want to have prepared the right spells just for action economy, so we don't lose the "thinking ahead" theme completely.
Also it puts the book much more in the spotlight instead of being just something that happens over breakfast. You could build on that with feats and special spellbooks that do something interesting when you're "must consult my notes"-ing.
(Also, I like how simple it is to implement.)
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I like the concept as a fix to wizards, who have problems. Although to be clear, the spellbook itself isn't much of a problem or limitation unless you have a GM who kind of insists on being a jerk.
I threw out the idea of "spell substitution on steroids" (1 action to reprepare a spell slot) as Ascalaphus put it in the thread about the arcane spell list being weak, as a solution to fixing wizards because then they truly could always have the right spell for the situation (though I hadn't linked it to spellbooks). But literally spending an action consulting their spell book to cast the desired spell from the page instead of from memory feels extremely on brand for a wizard and would go a long way to giving them a compelling edge in PF2.
Next PF2 game I run, I'll have to remember to add this as a houserule trial to see if it improves wizards.
I think over the by now decades the idea of what class does spells in what way and why has drifted. Perhaps drifted a whole lot faster in PF2 than before.
For me one of the key elements of the "wizard fantasy" is that a wizard goes out into the world to learn new magics and is really excited to get hold of a defeated rival's spellbook. If you just knew all the spells already it'd take a lot of the wind out of those sails.
But it's already a bit busted in PF2. The "Learn Spell" activity can also be done by talking to someone who already knows the spell, doesn't require it be the same tradition. So a wizard can just find a druid buddy who automatically knows all the common primal spells. And then just take notes on all the spells that happen to be on the overlap of the arcane and primal list.
The way that clerics and druids automatically know all their common spells also seems like a bit of an archaism to me. Back when, a fair bit of those spell lists were really really circumstantial things. Not spells that you'd normally use when adventuring, but things that you might use to run a temple as a social organization, or to position yourself as the mysterious person in the wood who's awakening animals. A lot of that stuff has been turned into rituals instead (which helps trim the spell lists down to stuff that makes sense during encounters).
My big dream is that by the time of PF3 we'll mostly migrate to everyone using spontaneous casting, but that classes like the wizard have a better ability to switch a few spells from their repertoire during the morning.
It's already pretty rare that you switch a majority of your prepared spells. Usually you just make a few tweaks. Often you can't really predict what you're gonna face, so you pack a fair amount of generic spells that work well against any kind of enemy. I don't think the supposed advantage of the wizard of being much more versatile and preparing the perfect silver bullets (compared to a sorcerer) is really happening. In fact it's more likely that...
I agree that part of the lore basis of wizards trying to expand their spell book was deflated significantly by other casters whom automatically know all the spells of their tradition. As you mention chatting with someone you know of another class becomes a much simpler method of gaining access to vast sets of spells.
As to the suggestion from someone about granting them automatic knowledge of some non-common spells. I don’t think having the thing wizards get being automatic grabbing of a few uncommon spells, as by definition, uncommon and such spell are supposed to be acknowledged as gated, and someone would argue their class ability gives them the right to override the gem not wanting to give them some spell that the GM may consider detrimental to the game. I think that would be the wrong direction to go. It seems like opening up a bad can of expectation worms.
I do also agree that the spell book (and familiar) mechanic does rely on gm or adventures insuring there is an opportunity to learn new spells. It is something I could imagine some GMs failing to allow for it.
I think the idea of an ever-growing spellbook, fun as it can be inherently, made more sense back when Wizards were overpowered: the fantasy in editions past was that when you started off, you were just a humble student of magic with only a few limited spells in your spellbook, but your spell list was also the strongest in the game. By the time you reached a high level and added a ton more spells to your collection, you'd effectively become a demigod. That, and you could also keep your spell slots unprepared during the day, so you could fill those slots in with the perfect spell as you adventured (and unlike now, there were a lot of silver bullet spells in prior editions too). That sort of exponential scaling isn't really something that's desired in 2e anymore, nor is it something that necessarily materializes for the Wizard or any other spellbook caster, and on top of that the mechanic requires a degree of figurative bookkeeping on the GM's part to make the party Wizard happy by throwing some spellbooks their way, in a way that isn't done for other classes: the Alchemist doesn't need specific named reagents to concoct their brews, and the Animist doesn't need to travel to a specific location in order to bond with a specific apparition.
For this reason, I do think spellbooks have room to change a bit: if the size of the Wizard's spellbook is defined by their level, and swapping out spells in their book is basically equivalent to much quicker retraining, then the Wizard could still be able to grow and adjust their spellbook, but in a way that's bounded and therefore no longer up for the GM to manage. This could still be tied to the story as well in the same way that an Exemplar's epithets could be tied to their deeds, and generally the game does award feats for completing certain challenges in some APs. Learning a Spell could still also be valuable, in the sense that Learning an uncommon or rare spell would still allow you to add it to your spellbook, and thus gain some larger benefit around it as per the above homebrew. In fact, assuming spellbooks were bounded in this way and the above homebrew worked, there'd be plenty of opportunities to add different bonuses via feats and other character options, so not only could you reprepare to spells in your spellbook much quicker, you could potentially also make those spells stronger, automatically add spellshapes to them, and so on and so forth. The more power you'd tie into the spellbook, the more impactful that spellbook would become, and the more the Wizard's spellbook selection would matter, which could allow Wizards to feel like specialists in their curriculum in a manner expressed mainly through benefits, rather than the current limitations of spell preparation and their fourth slot.
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Based on this thread, I observed that among all arcane casters, the ones that tended to draw criticism were prepared arcane casters specifically: arcane Sorcerers and Summoners were fine, but Maguses, Inscribed One Witches, and Wizards are generally thought of as problematic in some form or another. Specifically:
* Maguses draw criticism mainly due to their action economy, as well as their overall rigidity as spellcasters, to a degree where they're sometimes not even thought of as spellcasters so much as martials who can hit really hard and maybe sometimes deploy a bit of utility.
* Witches in general tend to not be seen as terribly strong unless you're using a Faith's Flamekeeper or Resentment patron, and the Inscribed One Witch is infamous for having a particularly weak familiar ability.
* Wizards have been criticized for a while, especially following the remaster. Though different players have different expectations out of the class, the consensus seems to be that the Wizard doesn't really shine at anything in particular, especially not at a time when there are many more four-slot casters around with strong class features. As it so happens, these also all happen to be Pathfinder's current spellbook casters, i.e. casters who prepare from the limited selection of a spellbook (or familiar, in the Witch's case) instead of their entire spell list as would an Animist, Cleric, or Druid. This got me thinking: what if spellbooks were turned from a limitation to an asset? In particular, when the topic of prepared casters comes up, that often comes with the suggestion of giving those prepared casters spell substitution by default. Thus, the suggestion would be:
* Allow all prepared spellcasters to prepare from their entire list.
* If a spellcaster has a spellbook or similar mechanic, they could quickly reprepare spells into spells from their spellbook as a 10-minute exploration activity, much like the...
Some good ideas here, pretty versatile!
I am working with some similar ideas for my own thing.
Free Spell Substitution for all prepared casters who have a spellbook or similar stuff.
Wizard with that thesis get to do it much quicker, quick enough to be useful in combat. One action may seem too good, but if the requirement is to be wielding your spellbook, you may have to spend an entire round to swap a spell, unless you pay the opportunity cost of keeping one hand always occupied with the book. I think that some kind of cooldown would also be required before you can do it again.
I think I had proposed some limitations to my original idea (in the arcane spell list thread) about scaling up to useable 4 times per day.
I'm not sure exactly what the right balance is or should be.
I almost kind of want to give two options:
Option 1: 1 action and spend a focus point to "reprepare" a spell slot, 1 minute cool down.
Option 2: 10 minutes and no focus point to reprepare as many spell slots as desired
Basically, out of combat a wizard can completely redo their prepped spells at will with enough time.
In combat, they're expending focus points to use the perfect spell but still limited to 1 per combat.
I think something like that might be the right option.
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are Grimoires already a type of Item?
I could see these as a special item that spellbook casters could take (By the way, this also includes the proposed Necromancer who uses their "Dirge". It's "internal" but functions the same way as the spell books and familiars)
They would essentially act as an extra spontaneous list, which you can load with one spell of each rank. and then you could choose to expend any spell slot of the appropriate rank on that spell instead of what was prepared. And Grimoires of different levels would allow you to set spells of various ranks.
OR given they have this unique limitation, perhaps they among spell casters should get and item unique to them to enhance spell casting rolls and DC's?