| Krulton |
Would the "Null" functionality (dispel magic and discharge tech) carry over from the bastard sword version to a short sword version of a Null Blade with the Transformative Greater enchant?
My table has already ruled on it so it doesn't matter what the consensus here is, I just have one way of viewing it and others have a different way of viewing it.
| Krulton |
The null blade isn't an enchant, it's THE WEAPON, it's like changing a whip to a dagger and asking if you can keep a whip's Reach if it transforms into a dagger.
It's a feature of the base weapon, the Null blade is a specific weapon, and no other weapon shares the ability. It's an abilities tied to the weapon itself. So greater transformative could turn a null blade into a shortsword, but then it's not a null blade, it's a shortsword.
This is our table ruling.
| Keep Calm and Carrion |
So greater transformative could turn a null blade into a shortsword, but then it's not a null blade, it's a shortsword.
Which implies that Greater Transformative could turn a shortsword into a null blade. Sweet!
| Azothath |
Null blade 1hnd mle extc wpn Capacity 10{battery}; Usage 1 charge/round; Special —$58835 Source Technology Guide. {description of technology item as fusion of tech, magic, & metallurgy} A null blade is a +1 construct-bane bastard sword— using it in this capacity does not consume any charges. The blade’s strange alloy penetrates hardness as if it were made of adamantine. The blade can be activated as a swift action. While it’s active, a shimmering field of green energy wraps around the blade, disrupting magic and technology alike, and the weapon’s enhancement bonus increases to +2. In addition, the first time in a round that an activated null blade strikes a creature or object, it consumes an additional charge and targets the creature or object struck with dispel magic and discharge (see page 9). If a technological item damaged by a null blade is used in the same round it took damage, it glitches as if it were timeworn (see page 55).
Transformative Greater Weapon Quality +$15000
unfortunately the description would prevent the casual modification/upgrade of the item. See Construction requirements below & the Technologist feat.
Construction
Craft DC 30; Cost 33,835 gp
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Technological Arms and Armor, military lab, discharge, dispel magic, summon monster I
IF a crafter met the construction requirements, had the Technologist Feat or could maintain the technomancy spell, a adamantine-noqual(adds $5000 to cost) shortsword/morningstar/dagger, then a GM could allow the crafting of a shortsword/cestus/morningstar/dagger version. Otherwise there'd be some trial & error and tears over lost gold in research to create a uni-blade version with Transformative Weapon. This is a "named item" in Org Play parlance, like Celestial Armor. Those are notoriously difficult to change or treat as standard items.
| Krulton |
Null Blade -
A potent fusion of magic, advanced science, and masterful weaponsmithing, null blades were devised by the Technic League as weapons against both magic and machine. Null blades incorporate an adamantine-noqual alloy in their blades, a closely guarded metallurgical secret of the Technic League. The League guards these weapons closely, and when one falls into another’s hands, they spare no expense in their efforts to recover it.
A null blade is a +1 construct-bane bastard sword— using it in this capacity does not consume any charges. The blade’s strange alloy penetrates hardness as if it were made of adamantine. The blade can be activated as a swift action. While it’s active, a shimmering field of green energy wraps around the blade, disrupting magic and technology alike, and the weapon’s enhancement bonus increases to +2. In addition, the first time in a round that an activated null blade strikes a creature or object, it consumes an additional charge and targets the creature or object struck with dispel magic and discharge (see page 9). If a technological item damaged by a null blade is used in the same round it took damage, it glitches as if it were timeworn (see page 55).
Transformative, Greater -
A greater transformative weapon becomes any other weapon the wielder desires when a command word is spoken. The weapon cannot become ammunition, but can freely change between simple, martial, exotic, light, one-handed, twohanded, melee, and ranged. The weapon retains all of its enhancement bonuses and weapon special abilities. However, abilities prohibited by its current shape do not function. For example, a keen greater transformative weapon functions normally in the form of a piercing or slashing weapon, but cannot use the keen special ability when in the shape of a bludgeoning weapon. A double weapon that loses the double quality cannot use the abilities on one of its ends (wielder’s choice), whereas a non-double weapon that gains the double quality applies all its abilities to only one end. When unattended for 1 day, the weapon reverts to its true shape.
One could argue:
The weapon retains all of its enhancement bonuses and weapon special abilities.
AND
However, abilities prohibited by its current shape do not function.
Would allow a Greater Transformative Null Blade to KEEP it's ability to "null" regardless of blade length since it still has a BLADE.
Would you have a Null Blade lose its "Null" ability if the person wielding it was subject to an Enlarge spell? While the blade may still be a bastard sword... The original weapon is a medium sized weapon not a large weapon.
If you choose to have it remain active in it's now larger size why shouldn't it stay active when changed to a shortsword?
Also... We are currently running through Iron Gods... At level 14... The two crafters have the skills needed to pull off the enchants and crafting of a new blade.
| Azothath |
As a "named item" you go immediately into GM territory. Being an item from the Technology Guide just reinforces that it's weird/non-standard & not magical (at least in part).
I provided a link so you don't need to repost text. I did it to reinforce the description & paraphrased the rest as it got complicated.
It is clearly a fusion of 3 things;
1) a noqual-adamantine alloy weapon. So here we're talking Craft Skill & Technologist feat to get to metallurgy. Alchemy≠Chemistry. Weaponsmithing is the same. Noqual is tricky, read it.
2) technology battery to empower dispel magic & discharge. It'll become dead in 7-9 rounds. Farting with this ability is definitely in the Technologist feat area and Know Engr. As it is likely to run dry, the authors have nicely added some usual functionality to it.
3) +1 & Bane construct. That's standard magic.
"Null" is just a catchy buzzword. Like all good marketing you pay extra for that.
Why not just get a Golembane scarab $2500 in a Magic Item Body Slot?
| Krulton |
Where do you get this 'Named Item" descriptor?
How is Null Blade any different of a name than Scatterlight Suit or Mindrender rifle? Or a trident? Or Hellknight Plate?
Hellknight plate is actually a good example... It is 'just' a suit of masterwork plate with some fancy bits to for the motif of the hellknights. There is a bit more to it but that specifically requires class features and could be argued to not be included in the actual plate armor.
First... We are not playing in an "organized play" game. So things that are restricted in organized play don't count.
You may not like that but that's what it is...
There are plenty of rules that are "legal" in standard Pathfinder that are disallowed in organized play. I'm not asking for an organized play answer because we are not following those rules to begin with. And one could easily argue that those rules are not rules as written but just rules of organized play.
So, outside of organized play, where is the 'named item' descriptor?
You are right though... There are three components to the weapon.
1) An adamantine-noqual alloy blade
2) A technological emitter of some form in the blade to perform the 'null' function.
3) A +1 Construct bane enchant
However...Somehow... this emiter... Can increase the enchant level of the weapon from a +1 to a +2, therefor intrinsically tying it to the enchantment in some capacity.
Now... How does this line from greater transformative:
The weapon retains all of its enhancement bonuses and weapon special abilities.
Interact with enchantments and special abilities?
We are not talking about a whip that would lose its 'reach' when transformed into a dagger. Or a keen special ability when in the shape of a bludgeoning weapon. A double weapon that loses the double quality cannot use the abilities on one of its ends.
What part of the emitter/blade assembly says it is restricted to bastard swords of medium size? Or Blades in general, why would it lose its function when turned into a hammer?
| Azothath |
the Organized Play answer is a flat NO.
That's not what I'm saying otherwise I could have said that in my first post. Org Play (aka PFS) is important as it was Paizo's campaign and they had to deal with actual play rather than some theoretical RAW. It was practical implementation play tested by thousands.
This is the Rules Forum. So it's explaining the rules and how they work. As soon as you veer into GM territory or home campaigns then you are in Homebrew or Advice.
In summary, you're just coming to the same conclusion many magic based players did when encountering technology. It's expensive, complicated, and is too costly to upgrade. Technologist feat just means the best answer to most tech/robots is to dump them into Create Pit and not deal with it. 8^P Venting your frustration at me is (mostly) useless.
| Krulton |
Why not just get a Golembane scarab $2500 in a MIBS?
Because my character is a dual wielder of shortswords and already has two +1 Adamantine Construct bane shortswords.
We "acquired" a Null Blade that I can't use and I was looking for ways to use it. As it stands, my GM agrees with you so we are just selling it. I can make due without, my character can blender through things well enough already I don't actually need the weapon. And I already agreed to follow the table rules regardless of what was said here... though I will leave off on my final point on this weapon enchantment.
"So I could get a regular whip and use greater transformation to make it a monowhip because there is no tech stuff in the way? It is just a really thin whip after all."
| Krulton |
the Organized Play answer is a flat NO.
That's not what I'm saying otherwise I could have said that in my first post. Org Play (aka PFS) is important as it was Paizo's campaign and they had to deal with actual play rather than some theoretical RAW. It was practical implementation play tested by thousands.This is the Rules Forum. So it's explaining the rules and how they work. As soon as you veer into GM territory or home campaigns then you are in Homebrew or Advice.
But you didn't actually say that in your first post... You had to edit it to add it in. I know since I was writing a reply when I noticed the edit.
You added the last line:
This is a "named item" in Org Play parlance, like Celestial Armor. Those are notoriously difficult to change or treat as standard items.
After you posted your original response. Nothing else in your original post mentions organized play as nothing in my post mentions organized play.
And this is the rules forum, it is not the organized play rules forum though. If this site distinguishes them...
So... Since the rules for organized play are NOT ACTUALLY the baseline rules (those would be what is in the rule books and FAQ) they don't apply. So I will take it that you agree that, by the rulebooks and FAQ, the enchant works the way it says it does and it should work in making the Null Blade a shortsword while keeping its abilities.
And I will leave you with: I agree with you that in Organized Play rules (and my table) it doesn't work.
| TxSam88 |
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"The weapon retains all of its enhancement bonuses and weapon special abilities."
All of the things the Null blade does is either an Enhancement Bonus, or a Special Ability. RAW, those stay if it's turned into another weapon.
| Krulton |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
the Organized Play answer is a flat NO.
That's not what I'm saying otherwise I could have said that in my first post. Org Play (aka PFS) is important as it was Paizo's campaign and they had to deal with actual play rather than some theoretical RAW. It was practical implementation play tested by thousands.This is the Rules Forum. So it's explaining the rules and how they work. As soon as you veer into GM territory or home campaigns then you are in Homebrew or Advice.
In summary, you're just coming to the same conclusion many magic based players did when encountering technology. It's expensive, complicated, and is too costly to upgrade. Technologist feat just means the best answer to most tech/robots is to dump them into Create Pit and not deal with it. 8^P Venting your frustration at me is (mostly) useless.
You think I'm venting my frustrations at the GM's choice on you?
No... I'm venting my frustrations about you being disingenuous about the forums, and your discussions about them in particular, on you.
I asked a question about rules mechanics in the rules forum.
Your original reply said nothing about Organized Play, at least at first.
You then proceed to tell me that my question is either Homebrew or Advice...
I'm not sure where you get homebrew or advice when asking about how two specific game rules interact. That is entirely "rules" and to say otherwise is wrong.
In fact... The very last paragraph in the "Pathfinder Rules Questions Guidelines" specifically state this:
The FAQ System & Organized Play
The Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild utilizes Pathfinder Roleplaying Game FAQ in the campaign. Additionally, the Organized Play team addresses campaign-specific issues in their own FAQ system or the online Campaign Clarifications document. For questions specifically geared towards Organized Play, please post them in the Roleplaying Guild General Discussion subform.
And about organized play... Only a small percentage of people who play pathfinder are in Organized play. I'm not sure how many is a "small percentage" but Paizo themselves are the ones that said it. I would say that a small percentage is less than 30%, with a more accurate number probably being closer to 10% to 15%. They have specific rules for a reason and therefor are handled differently and have additional rules specifically to handle game balance and table cohesion. And, to be fair, I agree with most, if not all, of those rules. Synthesis Summoners should be banned...
If you had opened your first comment with "Organized Play would handle it in this way" I wouldn't have an issue with it. But you didn't do that, you had to edit your post to add it AND you put it all the way at the bottom like you where trying hiding it. And that is what I have a problem with. And my "defense" of my stance is only because you are trying to pass off Organized Play rules as actual game rules, and they are not.
A vast majority of players DON'T play in Organized Play... And, while some may look at them to check for "red flag" issues to look out for, passing them off as "core" rules is entirely disingenuous.
Stop passing off Organized Play rules as gospel or as cannon rules. They are not.