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So something I am wondering is why did Chelixian stop being an ethnicity. The empire of Cheliax split off from Taldor 600 to 700 years before the game's current era. That should be long enough to form their own identity and undergo ethnogensis. Likewise with the Andorans and Galtans, who due to their revolutions probably don't see themselves as either Chelixan or Taldane.
In the first edition 1e book for Qadira there is a total of 14 unique ethnic groups for the empire of Kelesh and that is just a part of Casmeron. And when I read that it made me wonder why aren't there more ethnicities for Humans?
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The wiki has a few developer quotes about it here.
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The wiki has a few developer quotes about it here.
Makes sense to me.
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Casmaron is a huge continent and Kelesh is a sprawling empire. If you want similar variety in Avistan, you already have it: Taldans, Kellids, Varisians, Shoanti, Ulfen, Jadwiga, Varki, Iobarians...
I don't think treating the folk of Cheliax and Andoran as Taldans is any more dismissive than how the game acknowledges at least four distinct cultures that all get lumped under the umbrella of Mwangi.
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Casmaron is a huge continent and Kelesh is a sprawling empire. If you want similar variety in Avistan, you already have it: Taldans, Kellids, Varisians, Shoanti, Ulfen, Jadwiga, Varki, Iobarians...
Nidalese (who were introduced in the Lost Omens Campaign Setting having been absent from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, and are probably differentiated more from their neighbors than any of Chelaxians, Andorens, and Taldans are from one another).
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Casmaron is a huge continent and Kelesh is a sprawling empire. If you want similar variety in Avistan, you already have it: Taldans, Kellids, Varisians, Shoanti, Ulfen, Jadwiga, Varki, Iobarians...Nidalese (who were introduced in the Lost Omens Campaign Setting having been absent from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, and are probably differentiated more from their neighbors than any of Chelaxians, Andorens, and Taldans are from one another).
I couldn't remember if the Nidalese were considered their own thing or just especially morbid Kellids, thanks!
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Casmaron is a huge continent and Kelesh is a sprawling empire. If you want similar variety in Avistan, you already have it: Taldans, Kellids, Varisians, Shoanti, Ulfen, Jadwiga, Varki, Iobarians...
I don't think treating the folk of Cheliax and Andoran as Taldans is any more dismissive than how the game acknowledges at least four distinct cultures that all get lumped under the umbrella of Mwangi.
Iobaria is part of Casmeron not Avistan IIRC.
As for the Mwangi, the Mwangi expanse book split them up into their own cultures. It is outsiders who consider them
The Ethnicities of Kelesh(not all of Casmeron just the empire) are btw split between the Kelishite and non-Kelishite.
Kelishite: Aishmayar, Althameri, Khattibi, Mideans, Susianams, Tzorehiyi. The Kelishite ethnicity is a delibertly constructed identity to bind the empire together.
Other: Amai Birtim, Beshzens, Jalunahs, Karas, Mishyrians, Ninshaburians, Qalahs,
the wiki suggests that Taldan culture is obssessed with Taldor, taldris, and all the goings on of Taldor. Which is something that isn't part of Chelixian, Andoran, or Galtan culture.
My thought was that 600 years plus the revolutions in Galt and Andoran would have lead to ethnogensis of the Chelixian, Andoran, and Galtan identies as separate from Taldan. And if Kelishite can be a constructed identity so could Andoran and Galtan.
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I personally think the developer commentary on the topic is....bad.
From a standpoint of "what is an ethnicity" the people of Cheliax definitely qualify as being their own ethnicity.
Purely based on the connections to Hell and Devils, Cheliax has a significant enough difference from other "Taldanes" to justify being considered their own ethnicity.
However, in terms of game mechanics and relevance that it has...I don't think it really matters.
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I think it's probably good to keep in mind that the ethnicities Pathfinder officially uses tend to be pretty broad compared to real-life ones and in many cases can probably be better understood as "families" of ethnic groups lumped together for convenience. The exceptions to this are groups like the Nidalese which don't quite fit into any of the bigger categories. So, a Chelaxian and someone native to Taldor might arguably be different ethnicities but they are part of the same Ethnicity as far as the framework the rulebooks use is concerned.
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I personally think the developer commentary on the topic is....bad.
From a standpoint of "what is an ethnicity" the people of Cheliax definitely qualify as being their own ethnicity.
Purely based on the connections to Hell and Devils, Cheliax has a significant enough difference from other "Taldanes" to justify being considered their own ethnicity.
However, in terms of game mechanics and relevance that it has...I don't think it really matters.
120 years do not feel long enough to me to make the Chelaxians ethnically different from their neighbours, nor from what they were before (ie mostly Taldans).
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120 years do not feel long enough to me to make the Chelaxians ethnically different from their neighbours, nor from what they were before (ie mostly Taldans).I personally think the developer commentary on the topic is....bad.
From a standpoint of "what is an ethnicity" the people of Cheliax definitely qualify as being their own ethnicity.
Purely based on the connections to Hell and Devils, Cheliax has a significant enough difference from other "Taldanes" to justify being considered their own ethnicity.
However, in terms of game mechanics and relevance that it has...I don't think it really matters.
Cheliax hasn't been part of Taldor for over 600 years. The even tongue conquest that separated cheliax from Taldor happened in 4081 AR. The current in game date is 4725 AR. that is if I did my math right 644 years of seperation. While yes the recent turn about and influence of Hell happened with the death of Aroden in 4640 AR is what lead to house Thune's victory, or about 85 years ago. My point was less this particular vibe and more the fact that over 600 years have passed since they were separated from Taldor.
Andoran and Galt while more recent, I can see them stressing their own identity to not be lumped in with the devil worshipers of Taldor or the corrupt nobility of Taldor.
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Cheliax hasn't been part of Taldor for over 600 years.
What if anything was different between Cheliax as it was after Aspex and before the civil war, and Cheliax as it was under the Taldan empire? Other than where the extractive, parasitical imperial capital was located?
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120 years do not feel long enough to me to make the Chelaxians ethnically different from their neighbours, nor from what they were before (ie mostly Taldans).I personally think the developer commentary on the topic is....bad.
From a standpoint of "what is an ethnicity" the people of Cheliax definitely qualify as being their own ethnicity.
Purely based on the connections to Hell and Devils, Cheliax has a significant enough difference from other "Taldanes" to justify being considered their own ethnicity.
However, in terms of game mechanics and relevance that it has...I don't think it really matters.
Based on US history, I would say I couldn't disagree more.
We were pretty distinct from the English after 120 years.
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120 years do not feel long enough to me to make the Chelaxians ethnically different from their neighbours, nor from what they were before (ie mostly Taldans).I personally think the developer commentary on the topic is....bad.
From a standpoint of "what is an ethnicity" the people of Cheliax definitely qualify as being their own ethnicity.
Purely based on the connections to Hell and Devils, Cheliax has a significant enough difference from other "Taldanes" to justify being considered their own ethnicity.
However, in terms of game mechanics and relevance that it has...I don't think it really matters.
Based on US history, I would say I couldn't disagree more.
We were pretty distinct from the English after 120 years.
I think there is a melting pot effect there that did not happen in Cheliax AFAIK.
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Look we could argue back and forth in a lot of different ways and reasons to justify it being or not being an ethnicity. To be honest, I'm not interested in spending the time and effort because I don't care if you agree with me or not.
I believe it is justified in being its own ethnicity, and my understanding of how we define ethnicities in reality agrees with me (I think).
But regardless of whether or not they're separate, it honestly has basically no impact on the game or how anyone would play it. So it honestly doesn't matter.