Discussion on the Necrologist Archetype in Battlecry!

[Dragonchess Player]

I've been looking at the necrologist in Battlecry! and was wondering what other people think about it.

I think it's an interesting addition that fits one iteration of the "necromancer" concept that some people wanted: commander of an undead horde. The mechanic seems decent for several circumstances and there is a fair amount of horde customization available with the archetype feats. The physical damage resistance is thematic and makes the horde tougher.

I noticed some possible pain-points, however. The combination of weakness to area and splash damage with the necrologist taking damage done to the horde makes the horde a liability against some foes (TBF, this is probably a good thing for the game*). Also, the need use actions to Sustain and for the Mobbing Assault make action economy tricky; the free Stride by the horde with Raise the Horde and each Sustain helps, but without a feat similar to Effortless Concentration the necrologist may only have one action available.

*- PF2 avoids allowing a single tactic/combo to be the "best choice" in all situations

[Christopher#2411504]

It is bad for the exact same reason as the Swarmkeeper: The Sustain.
For that reason, in any give combat you wll either use it:
- almost exclusively
- not at all
With a strong tendency towards the latter.

Edit: Actually, it is even worse. Because it is limited to casters, it uses your Caster AC, Saves and HP.
The stats that are so bad, your best defense is not putting your HP into melee range.

[Christopher#2411504]

My fixes would be something glike_
- just cut the Sustain (but give it Dismiss)
- allow the Sustain to do the basic Damaging move, on top of just moving
- just require you to spend at least 1 Action each turn on the Swarm/Troop. Let move choose between Sustain, basic Damage and the Feats

[Dragonchess Player]

To be fair, I think the primary intent of sustaining the horde is to block enemy movement (taking up space as a Huge creature, Stride when summoned or sustained) and not "double up" on horde and spell damage in the same turn. Although there are some single action spells that could synergize; just not overwhelmingly so.

Interestingly, a bard may be a good base class for the necrologist with the multiple single action options (spells, etc.) they get.

[LinnormSurface]

If I recall correctly, some people had pointed out that the Swarmkeeper is quite suited to the enhanced action economy of the Summoner, since you can get two actions from your Eidolon and then spend your two actions on Swarmkeeper activities, and to me it seems the Necrologist is the same.
With the addition of the Swarm Eidolon, they even both have a perfectly thematic Eidolon to pick! My only concern is that the horde and Eidolon are both ways to lose HP, so you'll want lots of ways to regain health during a fight.

Insofar as other classes, I think the Monk's enhanced action economy helps them a lot too, especially since your horde is fairly effective at applying off-guard iirc, meaning they're going to potentially be decent for softening up a target's AC before you use your Flurry on them(although you'd need to use an archetype to get spell slots and Summon Undead first, so that's probably best for a free archetype game).

I do also agree about Bard being a solid pick, especially once you're able to use Dirge of Doom to lower your foes' saves and then attack with your horde.

[Perpdepog]

It looks like a fun addition to the game. I like the feats that let you hide in your horde, and the ones that give you the spirit horde type; I wish we got a few more of those honestly, like one to let you control a pack of ghouls or mummies.

My biggest letdown with the archetype is that you need Summon Undead to use it, because I was looking forward to making a horde necromancer-style skeleton commander.

[exequiel759]

Perpdepog wrote:

It looks like a fun addition to the game. I like the feats that let you hide in your horde, and the ones that give you the spirit horde type; I wish we got a few more of those honestly, like one to let you control a pack of ghouls or mummies.

My biggest letdown with the archetype is that you need Summon Undead to use it, because I was looking forward to making a horde necromancer-style skeleton commander.

Since necrologist is a 6th level archetype its easy to take a spellcasting archetype at 2nd level and take the basic spellcasting feat at 4th. You need free archetype though because you need to take a feat from the caster archetype at 6th level using your class feats though (or ignore the 3 feat rule, it sucks anyways).

[Christopher#2411504]

I just can't see it that positively.

It is balanced as a 2 Action Spell with "Sustained, up to 1 Minute". And the spell effect boils down to:
- your caster defenses are easily attacked in melee (in fact, you move them there)
- you are easily attacked with area abilities
- you get to clutter up the battle map, for friend and foe alike
- you get to spend more actions and feats you actually want to do something

And those just aren't good.

You Spend two actions for one Sustain and one Mobbing Assault. That is a Spell worth of actions and being easily attacked for "maybe move area 30ft, deal 2D6 area Damage".

And that leaves you only 1 Action for doing anything else. So, basic Strike or Stride maybe? Shield Cantrip won't help if they attack the horde.

Don't expect to use any class features this turn, unless you are the rare class with some 1 or Free Action stuff.

This is like the Witchwarper, except:
- you need 2 Actions to summon the field
- Anchoring Actions don't Sustain the Quantum Field, they just need it
- you can be punched and shot in the Field
- area spells overlapping the field hit you for increased damage
- eventually you can invest into feats that allow the field to do something passive

[Squiggit]

The action economy is absolutely brutal, yeah. It's especially awkward on a caster-centric archetype since using your horde directly competes with casting spells. It's definitely best as a later combat saving spellslots thing, but I think that's a really unsatisfying fantasy for the kind of person who wants an undead horde.

The base kit is just modified swarmkeeper, which feels weird because swarmkeeper was such a problematic archetype... not a lot to talk about but it feels kind of odd they made the recovery period ten times longer and gave it 4 level scaling instead of 2 level scaling like swarmkeeper. The latter especially feels like an unnecessary nerf that just makes it feel bad at off levels.

As has been mentioned, the way it makes you so much easier to attack is not a great feeling either, especially for a caster who tends to be squishier and likes to use nonstandard defenses.

Deathguard feels mandatory. The benefit is both pretty decent (essentially permaconcealed for everyone except you since enemies can still hit the troop) and the ability to share spaces feels absolutely necessary to keep your party functional. I don't know why they make you wait four whole levels to be able to do this.

I dislike Ghostsong. It's not bad and has cool flavor, but I don't really like the flavor tax, that if you want a ghost army you need to spend an extra feat and, again, wait four levels.

Danse Macabre is kind of stupid because it says you can move through large creatures, but the horde doesn't have enough movement to do that without also taking Shambling March. March is a pretty good feat so it's not a huge deal but I dislike it when feats don't work properly on their own.

It feels weird that Death Rattle is unfriendly given that almost every other ability in the archetype is designed to not harm allies or benefit enemies. Given the incentive to stand inside the horde for defensive benefits it makes the feat feel like a liability.

It kind of makes this archetype feel... begrudging? Like people have been asking for undead hordes for a while and now here's Necrologist take it or leave it.