Animal Archetype: Feats

[drsparnum]

Does an animal archetype allow the animal to take the archetype without meeting the prerequisite of the listed feats? Or does the animal still need to meet the prerequisites, but the feat is now on the eligible feat list?

For example, the bully archetype has improved trip on the list. Does the animal still need a 13 INT?

Bully Archetype:
ttps://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Companion%20Bully

[Java Man]

Since power attack is allowed to be substitute for combat expertise I would assume that str should replace int as a requirement. But as written it seems that the int requirement remains.

[I grok do u]

Ultimate Wilderness strikes again!

RAW, yes - the companion must meet the prerequisites. RAI, no - since no animal companions get 13 INT (level 15-16 familiar equivalent) without a lot of magic, it is reasonable that the 13 INT requirement should have been replaced. I suspect that because the INT prereq is not on the summary list, it was overlooked. Otherwise they probably would have switched to STR or simply stated animal companions without the mindless quality could take Improved and Greater Trip without the 13 INT.

Also note the easily overlooked rule:

Ultimate Wilderness p186 wrote:

Animal companions with more than one

natural attack and only primary natural attacks can’t take
a companion archetype that trades out Multiattack

[Diego Rossi]

I grok do u wrote:

Also note the easily overlooked rule:

Ultimate Wilderness p186 wrote:

Animal companions with more than one

natural attack and only primary natural attacks can’t take
a companion archetype that trades out Multiattack

A pearl, as Multiattack does nothing for creatures without secondary attacks:

Quote:

Multiattack (Combat, Monster)

Source Pathfinder RPG Bestiary pg. 315
This creature is particularly skilled at making attacks with its natural weapons.

Prerequisites: Three or more natural attacks.

Benefit: The creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.

Normal: Without this feat, the creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take a –5 penalty.

[I grok do u]

Diego Rossi wrote:

A pearl, as Multiattack does nothing for creatures without secondary attacks:

Quote:

Multiattack (Combat, Monster)

Source Pathfinder RPG Bestiary pg. 315
This creature is particularly skilled at making attacks with its natural weapons.

Prerequisites: Three or more natural attacks.

Benefit: The creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.

Normal: Without this feat, the creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take a –5 penalty.

Ain't it!

To be fair, he animal companion does get a modified version of the feat with a pseudo-iterative:

Animal Companion wrote:

Multiattack (level 9): An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty.

So still, a strange limitation.

[Diego Rossi]

I grok do u wrote:

So still, a strange limitation.

I assume that many contributors to the rules never read what that feat does and assumed it enables making more than one primary natural attack each round.

You see the same thing with some rule about two-weapons fighting. You don't need the feat to be able to fight with two weapons; it reduces the penalty.
Iterative attacks with the "secondary" weapon require the other feats in the chain, but that doesn't matter for the first extra attack.

[Azothath]

Handle Animal training and light armor proficiency CRB FAQ, 2010 implies you can train existing feats into sensible feats with GM approval.

Archetype - When is it a standard ability, CRB FAQ 2013
When do I have a class feature, CRB FAQ 2013

there's no relief from RAW requirements. You can ask your GM to allow some retraining via Hndl Anml or make an exception.

[Belafon]

Diego Rossi wrote:

I grok do u wrote:

So still, a strange limitation.

I assume that many contributors to the rules never read what that feat does and assumed it enables making more than one primary natural attack each round.

It's an attempt to prevent a "something-for-nothing" trade.

There are several animal companions - prominently Big Cats such as lions and tigers - that have three or more primary attacks but no secondary attacks. Since they have at least three natural attacks, they get Multiattack instead of the iterative attack. But since none are secondary attacks, Multiattack doesn't give them any benefit. So why wouldn't you take an archetype that gets rid of the useless feat for something useful?

It's a pretty widespread opinion that this rule change in Ultimate Wilderness was "fixing a problem" that didn't need fixing. Even Pathfinder Society decided to ignore the archetype limitation.

Additional Resources wrote:

Ultimate Wilderness - Companion Archetypes: Animal companions can trade out the multiattack ability when qualifying for an archetype, even if multiattack does not benefit them; this is a campaign-specific decision that contradicts the details on page 186.

[Azothath]

to be clear, this is from the Animal Companion Base Statistics Chart 9th level and the interaction with Anml Cmpn Big Cat choice.

Monster listing Tiger CR:4

glad PFS made a sensible decision along the lines of the CRB FAQ 2010.
I'm surprised Ult Wild 2017 just didn't give a list of substitute feats to constrain the variance. A ban is just less text (LoL).

[Tom Sampson]

By RAW, no, but the RAI on the Bully archetype appears to be clear on this. Since 13 int is more a prerequisite of the Combat Expertise feat that is inherited by the combat maneuver feat, it is likely intended that when Power Attack substitutes for Combat Expertise, the 13 str (and 1 BAB) requirement substitutes for the 13 int requirement. As such, the sensible ruling would be to replace the 13 int requirement.

I would also like to point note that you can have an animal companion use the Dirty Fighting feat which will count as 13 int and Combat Expertise (along with counting as 13 dex and Improved Unarmed Strike) for the sake of improved maneuver feats and any feats that have an improved maneuver feat as a prerequisite. So that is another way to let your animal companion take these feats.