I've made my house rule to get rid of that Tumble Through absurdity. I hope Paizo cleans that ruling up. It is a bad ruling. Tumble Through should be a skill action used for the intended purpose of moving through an enemy's square, not a de facto Stride with a single caveat.
I'll be back to this thread when I play an animist. I have a few builds I will try. See how it works.
But no matter what I will never use that Tumble Through and Stride are equivalent but for one thing. Tumble Through is a meaningful skill action with a purpose in game. I plan to keep that the case.
I won't change it unless I see an official errata from Paizo. Not a discord response from a game designer making an unofficial comment.
When Paizo makes Tumble Through and Stride equivalent officially, then I guess I'll begrudgingly use it.
Derivin, none of this matters in actual play. You get no benefit from sustaining any vessel spell more than once a round. There are very few apparition spells available to you that sustain and most of those have similar language built in. You are going to be sustaining one or two spells a round as an animist at most, but it is a key expected thing for you to do. Sustaining a spell as a free action is very good. Sustaining a very narrow set of spells as a part of a move action is ok. Being able to do that twice with one action on really makes it effortless concentration good. Not game breaking.
What benefits does a Medium get at level 9 when he can take 2 main spirits?
What can this potentially give?
You can use both vessel spells without needing to take the first level feat "circle of spirits" nor burn one action to change.
It's ok, but your lvl 1 feat comes with a caveat (you have one apparition that you cannot ever change, which hampers your day to day flexibility) and the liturgist gets circle of spirits for free.
So at lvl 9+, the liturgist can sustain with a step/tumble through/jump while the medium gains one free action if he wants to use two vessel spells.
It's ok, but the liturgist is still vastly superior, since even if you need to switch vessel spells, the one-action cost is easier to pay with free sustains.
- As for the animist, he can already leap which, at lvl 9 (when it matters) with assurance, is a guaranteed 25 feet (30 feet with strong jump). Tumble through is just more convenient as it doesn't need skill feats.
It's not a buff. It is just a convenience. No one cares about skill feats anyway.
/s
Basically, the ONLY time in the game where you gain anything by tumbling through instead of striding is when you're a liturgist - and that's specifically by design, because you're supposed to dance and prance around to keep your spells running.
So sure, your barbarian or wizard or ranger can tumble around, just like I as a player can do it in my dining room. You just don't gain anything by it except dusty clothes.
That's not helping your case any. Stick to arguing strict RAW.
That's not helping your case any. Stick to arguing strict RAW.
That’s the thing, I don’t need to. Case has been solved, those who disagree are free to houserule, now let’s move on.
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Come on, man, there are already plenty of classes with anathema if you want one. If you want an animist with anathema, you can always ask your GM to house rule it for you. Please don't force me and everyone else to play with arbitrary restrictions by default. That is the one class in the game that was done perfectly. Remember the old saying: "Don't fix what isn't broken."Are you being sarcastic because you have completely misunderstood my point? I generally feel the same way but I also believe adding anathema to apparitions would ADD to RPing, not detract.I think ADDING a nerf to the class, something like apparition anathemas as I had previously mentioned, would reign in its power without gutting its gimmick and would add a ton of RP potential. I think apparition anathemas would add a ton of more fun to the class really.No!!! No, it would not. Restricting roleplay options does not make things more fun, it just kills ideas. Also, please leave the Animist alone, that is quite literally the one class that I love in this game. It’s perfect. Whoever designed it should be in charge of more classes. But if not, let’s at least keep that one class untouched. I want my one Animist Peach Leshy to remain as it is.
You really need to read the preceding conversation thoroughly. I'm not asking for nerfs (outside of liturgist). Others are. But if nerfs WERE to be added, anathema would be a good idea IMO.
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I don't use any of those options that are on the more overpowered side, so to me, those nerfs would be much less consequential. I never play a liturgist nor use Earth's Bile. To me, those nerfs would be far less relevant than an anathema because that would change the core of what I love about the class, the idea that you aren't subservient to the apparitions like you would be to a god or patron. That is what makes the class so good.
Yeah, I avoid liturgist as well unless I actually envision my character hopping and dancing around regularly. I see nothing too powerful about earth's bile. I wouldn't actively avoid it for any reason. The real power in the class that some find problematic is its ability to cover most roles competently in a single build.
When I say "anathema", I'm thinking less of how they are implemented for clerics and something more akin to the taboo mechanic of the 1e medium. It'd basically encourage you to take on the values and personality traits of your apparitions and then you'd loose an apparition and/or take a penalty for the day if you did something anathematic to that apparition. Maybe you'd lose control of your character but I'd want something like that to be more optional, like a feat path that steals or takes inspiration from the living vessel archetype.