Wyvern Savage vs Escape with unarmed attack


Rules Discussion


The wyvern's Savage reaction is triggered by a creature grabbed or restrained by the wyvern critically failing a skill check to Escape. Does that mean the target is safe if they use their unarmed attack modifier to Escape instead of a skill check?


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Legalistic technicality parsing answer? Yes.

Honest "how do I think this ability is supposed to work?" answer? Definitely no.

Which are you looking for?


The RAI answer, I guess.


We can only guess at if it's an intentional interaction or not, so I'm not sure how you'd parse RAI here. Personally? I'm running it the same no matter if they use a skill or an unarmed strike attempt to escape because it's more consistent that way and I value consistency a lot.


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The intent of having the Escape action also allow Unarmed Attack Bonus for its check is so that Athletics doesn't become a must-pick for every character that doesn't want to have grappled, tied up, or swallowed whole be 'character removed from combat' effects with no recourse other than untrained checks.

Wyvern's Savage only mentioning one of the two options feels like an oversight. I wouldn't allow an argument of 'but I'm not using a skill check to Escape' as a reason for negating the creature's ability that only triggers on a critical failure to begin with.


Finoan wrote:

The intent of having the Escape action also allow Unarmed Attack Bonus for its check is so that Athletics doesn't become a must-pick for every character that doesn't want to have grappled, tied up, or swallowed whole be 'character removed from combat' effects with no recourse other than untrained checks.

Wyvern's Savage only mentioning one of the two options feels like an oversight.

Three options.

" Attempt a check using your unarmed attack modifier against the DC of the effect. <...> You can attempt an Acrobatics or Athletics check instead of using your attack modifier if you choose (but this action still has the attack trait)."


Errenor wrote:

Three options.

" Attempt a check using your unarmed attack modifier against the DC of the effect. <...> You can attempt an Acrobatics or Athletics check instead of using your attack modifier if you choose (but this action still has the attack trait)."

Fair. As a technicality.

It doesn't change the idea that one of these two skills must be picked if Unarmed Attack wasn't available. Still the intent in having Unarmed Attack be an option is because every character is automatically at least Trained in the check.


Last I checked, unarmed attack modifer is the default option presented by the Escape action, then the action later says you may choose to roll Athletics or Acrobatics instead. It's not a skill-based action by default.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It is not, but there's no guarantee that the author of the Wyvern stat block knew that when they wrote the ability.


SuperParkourio wrote:
Last I checked, unarmed attack modifer is the default option presented by the Escape action, then the action later says you may choose to roll Athletics or Acrobatics instead. It's not a skill-based action by default.

That... doesn't help your case any.

At best it is irrelevant - the order of presentation changes exactly zero facts.

Leaning into it and pointing out that Unarmed Attack bonus is mentioned as the default option - in addition to being the one that every character has trained by default - just means that having the Wyvern's ability trigger only on a critical failure of the non-standard skill check options would fail the Creature Build Review guidelines.

Building Creatures wrote:
Can it do everything you wanted? Does it fit its intended role? Is there anything you could add or anything superfluous you could cut to get the creature where it needs to be?

In order for the ability to even be usable, the creature has to have a creature grabbed (which is something that it will likely do since one of its attacks has the Grab ability); then the creature has to choose to use one of the skill options to escape (which they would only do if their skill bonus is better than their unarmed attack bonus); and then the creature has to critically fail that check.

Many characters are going to use their Unarmed attack bonus since it is equal or better than their skill bonuses. And critical failures don't happen all that often. Maybe for an Escape action if the character really wants to Escape and is rolling badly and so fails their first two attempts and ends up spending a 3rd action trying to Escape at -10 from MAP.

With all of that stacked together, that starts looking like something superfluous that will not likely happen during the 4 rounds of screen time that the Wyvern is going to get.

If instead the skill options were the primary use case for Escape, that would strengthen the argument that it is intended that Unarmed Attack check Escape attempts are exempted from the Wyvern ability.

Sovereign Court

Well, they could have just left out the word "skill";

Quote:
A creature grabbed or restrained by the wyvern critically fails a skill check to Escape;

But did they do that with deeper intent or just by accident?

Who would prefer to use skill instead of (finesse) unarmed strike?

As this is a level 6 monster, you can count on it fighting level 4 PCs sometimes. Those might have already gotten to expert acrobatics (swashbucklers) or athletics (various martials).

There might also be the occasional war priest whose athletics goes up earlier than their unarmed proficiency. Or paranoid wizard who seriously invests in acrobatics.

But overall, it does seem rather niche


I remember there being a similar debate surrounding the Web Lurker, whose Web Trap immobilizes the target with a "DC 20 Acrobatics check to Escape."

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