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So I am relatively new to 1e, and I am planning out an unchained monk for the campaign I'm playing, and I'm having trouble deciding which route is more optimal to go after lvl 8. The campaign is til lvl 17, and we are using Elephant in the Room and Automatic Bonus Progression.
I am going Crane Style feat chain, so the build is fixed until level 8. After that there are 2 ways I can go with the build:
- Dimensional Agility -> Dimensional Assault -> Dimensional Dervish -> Dimensional Savant -> Outflank
- Possessed Hand -> Hand's Sight -> Iron Will -> Improved Initiative -> Counterpunch
The first route is more fun and flavorful, but only come online at level 13. I would have to spend 5 levels before that with 2 not very useful feats. Ki usage should not be a problem with Human fcb, ki leech, and items. But un-monk also have Flying Kick, which makes Dimensional Dervish slightly less worth it.
The second route give small but very useful bonuses, but I get immediate returns on every feats I spent. It is less interesting but more well-rounded overall I think.
So I guess my question here is how much am I giving up by going the first route? Is it worth it with the Dimensional feat chain if I already have flying kick?
Thanks for the advice!
Since the object of the game is to have fun you kind of answered your own question. You said the first option is more fun and flavorful. As long as the campaign will go high enough that you actually get to play the character after the build comes online the first build would be my recommendation.
The dimensional feat chain actually gives you useful abilities with each feat. The ability to act after using dimension door can be very useful even if you cannot attack. Dimensional Assault has an incredibly long range. The ability to attack from over a half mile away is pretty good. In my opinion this build actually has the better progression of abilities as well as a higher end result.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: Since the object of the game is to have fun you kind of answered your own question. You said the first option is more fun and flavorful. As long as the campaign will go high enough that you actually get to play the character after the build comes online the first build would be my recommendation.
The dimensional feat chain actually gives you useful abilities with each feat. The ability to act after using dimension door can be very useful even if you cannot attack. Dimensional Assault has an incredibly long range. The ability to attack from over a half mile away is pretty good. In my opinion this build actually has the better progression of abilities as well as a higher end result.
Thank you for the answer!
I believe I’m going to have fun with either of the two builds. For me, optimization is part of the fun as well, so I’m trying to balance mechanical payoff with flavor and theme. The Dimensional feat chain feels cooler and has a high-impact payoff later on, but I also enjoy a build that gives me useful returns at every level. Just trying to weigh which path gives me the most satisfying experience across the whole campaign, not just at the end.
Could you clarify why you feel the first build has the better progression overall? From an optimization standpoint, I find the first 2 feats of the chain are underwhelming when compared to what I get out of Possessed Hand/Hand's Sight.
Dimensional Ability removes a major limitation on dimensional door. Since abundant step is a move action it allows you to teleport your full distance and still do other things including a single attack. This allows you to do things like teleport and grab an item. You also can also get your AoO’s after you teleport and can perform immediate actions. If you need to accomplish an action like pulling a lever to turn something on or off you can accomplish that in a single turn. Too me that is much better than a +1 insight bonus and a minor once a day ability.
Dimensional Assault does not give as much to the monk but still lets you perform a charge. For someone using dimension door as a spell it is a lot more valuable. For the monk it is basically a feat tax for Dimensional Dervish.
Dimensional Dervish is pure gold. It allows you to move between attacks on a full attack. You can also use abundant step as a swift action. Being able to attack foes that are spread out all other the place is something very difficult to achieve. The rest of the feats in the build are really good.
Improved initiative is not that good of a feat so diminish the second build. Iron will may be useful for an unchained monk depending on his WIS. Those feats kind of diminish the second build. This build has as many if not more dead feats as the other build.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: Dimensional Ability removes a major limitation on dimensional door. Since abundant step is a move action it allows you to teleport your full distance and still do other things including a single attack. This allows you to do things like teleport and grab an item. You also can also get your AoO’s after you teleport and can perform immediate actions. If you need to accomplish an action like pulling a lever to turn something on or off you can accomplish that in a single turn. Too me that is much better than a +1 insight bonus and a minor once a day ability.
Dimensional Assault does not give as much to the monk but still lets you perform a charge. For someone using dimension door as a spell it is a lot more valuable. For the monk it is basically a feat tax for Dimensional Dervish.
Dimensional Dervish is pure gold. It allows you to move between attacks on a full attack. You can also use abundant step as a swift action. Being able to attack foes that are spread out all other the place is something very difficult to achieve. The rest of the feats in the build are really good.
Improved initiative is not that good of a feat so diminish the second build. Iron will may be useful for an unchained monk depending on his WIS. Those feats kind of diminish the second build. This build has as many if not more dead feats as the other build.
Thanks alot. I think I will go with your advice. Although I have always heard Improved Initiative as a generally good feat. This is the first time I seen someone said it's not good lol.
Azothath wrote: ummm unchained Monk ummm indeed ._.
The value of improved Initiative depends on the character. If the character gains a significant advantage from going first it is good. For a spell caster that needs to get off a spell or a rogue who gets sneak attack if they act before others in the first round it is decent. For a martial character it is not as valuable. Dimensional Dervish is a lot better than improved Initiative. It is fairly decent for something like a sorcerer’s bloodline feat, or if your build is complete and you don’t have anything else to take.
if you think your game will hit 20th+ level then I'd stay in Unch Monk.
Otherwise (I saw the 17th level limit) with Int 12+ I'd multiclass into Wiz(diviner)1 BO Amulet with Magical Knack. It will let you bypass UMD for most Arcane wands (as spell lists, Spellcraft & CstrLvl is a better mechanic) and such and give you mage armor, shield, long arm, obscuring mist, vanish, etc. Use an Aegis of Recovery (later Amulet of Mighty Fists) as your BO. +1 INIT and act in surprise round are bonuses. Magic is pretty prevalent and those spells will give you tricks that stay handy as you level up. It also means your can use your Ki pool for martial things as your spells cover most magical tricks.
If it is Wis 12+ the Sorceror BL:wildblooded(celestial) empyreal or Druid {for barkskin:T2 & Ki pool} are good choices (just not as good as diviner above). Cleric can work for a preferred weapon that you can use with your Monk abilities but the spell list isn't great and the powers scale with level.
Monks have ability score needs across the board (aka MAD). With a 20 point buy you could go very general with [14,14,12,13,14,10] or a more focused [16,14,10,13,12,10], then apply racial points. You'll get headband and belt later for ability boosts. Human, aasimar(never say no to just bonuses!), half-elf, half-orc, catfolk, tengu.
Unc Monk Guide (discussion) from ZG
I disagree with the multiclassing. Single level dips to gain spell casting is not worth delaying your primary classes abilities. Often there is already a similar spell caster in the party that can use those magic items. If you really want Mage Armor buy the spell caster in the party a pearl of power or similar items and get the benefit for much longer.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: I disagree with the multiclassing. Single level dips to gain spell casting is not worth delaying your primary classes abilities. Often there is already a similar spell caster in the party that can use those magic items. If you really want Mage Armor buy the spell caster in the party a pearl of power or similar items and get the benefit for much longer. if it were just 1 spell (glossing over cantrips) I'd agree but for the Diviner wizard it is 4 (1 class +1 Int12 +1 diviner +1 BO). Trumping UMD, better Will save, +1 INIT, always act in surprise round, the occasional std actn +1 insight for a round to all rolls is all rather nice for the character.
Sure, a spellcaster in the party is more effective and for you their expended actions are free... they will have a rather different opinion once combat starts. With preparation and planning it's a good strategy (so not a strong disagreement).
Azothath wrote: if you think your game will hit 20th+ level then I'd stay in Unch Monk.
Otherwise (I saw the 17th level limit) with Int 12+ I'd multiclass into Wiz(diviner)1 BO Amulet with Magical Knack. It will let you bypass UMD for most Arcane wands (as spell lists, Spellcraft & CstrLvl is a better mechanic) and such and give you mage armor, shield, long arm, obscuring mist, vanish, etc. Use an Aegis of Recovery (later Amulet of Mighty Fists) as your BO. +1 INIT and act in surprise round are bonuses. Magic is pretty prevalent and those spells will give you tricks that stay handy as you level up. It also means your can use your Ki pool for martial things as your spells cover most magical tricks.
If it is Wis 12+ the Sorceror BL:wildblooded(celestial) empyreal or Druid {for barkskin:T2 & Ki pool} are good choices (just not as good as diviner above). Cleric can work for a preferred weapon that you can use with your Monk abilities but the spell list isn't great and the powers scale with level.
Monks have ability score needs across the board (aka MAD). With a 20 point buy you could go very general with [14,14,12,13,14,10] or a more focused [16,14,10,13,12,10], then apply racial points. You'll get headband and belt later for ability boosts. Human, aasimar(never say no to just bonuses!), half-elf, half-orc, catfolk, tengu.
Unc Monk Guide (discussion) from ZG
I have been spending a bit of time reading the guide haha. We are playing 25 point buys and I am going aasimar, so the MAD issue is somewhat manageable. I do see the appeal for dipping, it is probably more optimal, but I dont really want to multiclass for story reason as well as to not delay my class feature. Appreciate the advice tho!
Mysterious Stranger wrote: The value of improved Initiative depends on the character. If the character gains a significant advantage from going first it is good. For a spell caster that needs to get off a spell or a rogue who gets sneak attack if they act before others in the first round it is decent. For a martial character it is not as valuable. Dimensional Dervish is a lot better than improved Initiative. It is fairly decent for something like a sorcerer’s bloodline feat, or if your build is complete and you don’t have anything else to take. That does make sense.
While we are on the topic, do you have any suggestions on ki power and style strikes?
My plan rn is:
- Wind Step (windstep master archetype)-> Barkskin-> Abundant Step-> Ki Leech-> Diamond Soul-> Empty Body(maybe)-> ??
- For style strike its Flying Kick at 5th lvl, then Elbow Smash, Shattering Punch and Spin Kick, but Im not sure in which order to take which style.
Mage Armor last 1 hour per level so should be cast out of combat. Multicassing also means giving up +1 BAB which delays abilities like power attack and will delay feats with a BAB prerequisite. With only 1 hour duration on the Mage Armor it will take all 3 of his spells slots that it can be used in. That reduces the number of spells he can actually use to 1 Divination spells plus mage armor. Using Magical Knack prevents him from taking traits that would benefit his monk abilities. Besides the character is already 7t h level which means it has already taken its 2 traits. Spending a feat for extra traits is definitely not worth it.
Missing more often, doing less damage, delaying Fort and Reflex saves, and delaying access to other monk class abilities are not worth 3 hours of Mage Armor.
I would probably go with Leg Sweep instead of Elbow Smash. Knocking someone prone puts them at a disadvantage and they provoke an AoO when they stand up.
dimensional dervish is super cool but its true value gets diminished by your flying kick. so if youre in a position when you can use flying kick or dimensional dervish, the swift action and ki youre using is competing with an extra attack or another ki power you could have used instead
mysterious stranger is right in that dimensional agility removes a big restriction though so you may want the first feat if you think those situations will come up a lot
improved initiative is good for an unchained monk because flying kick means youre (often) able to fullattack even in the first round. if youre wasting your first turn moving up to enemies then going first doesnt matter much, but for you it does
hands sight is not super good. but hands autonomy can save your life if you stock up on anti-condition potions. id take that over darkvision and antiflanking
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
I would probably go with Leg Sweep instead of Elbow Smash. Knocking someone prone puts them at a disadvantage and they provoke an AoO when they stand up.
Is tripping really worth it at later level? Wouldn't just getting an extra attack more reliable?
Tottemas wrote: dimensional dervish is super cool but its true value gets diminished by your flying kick. so if youre in a position when you can use flying kick or dimensional dervish, the swift action and ki youre using is competing with an extra attack or another ki power you could have used instead
mysterious stranger is right in that dimensional agility removes a big restriction though so you may want the first feat if you think those situations will come up a lot
improved initiative is good for an unchained monk because flying kick means youre (often) able to fullattack even in the first round. if youre wasting your first turn moving up to enemies then going first doesnt matter much, but for you it does
hands sight is not super good. but hands autonomy can save your life if you stock up on anti-condition potions. id take that over darkvision and antiflanking
Hmm so would u suggest going a bit of both routes? Just grab dimensional agility then go the possessed hand chain. Although for dimensional dervish, I can always retrain flying kick to get something else
Flying kick has some advantages and limitations that the dimensional feats do not. The big advantage it has is that it does not cost any Ki, so can be used a lot more. It also only allows a single move of limited distance. It does increase as you level up but will never match the distance you can cover with abundant step. It is great for getting to an opponent or group of opponents that are together.
Abundant Step allows you to move a much greater distance, but cost Ki. This can allow you attack a character you may not otherwise be able to attack. Since the character will have Wind Step, he could even teleport to a flying target and activate Wind Step. When you take Dimensional Dervish, you can make multiple moves and attack targets that are not close to each other. Dimensional Savant allows you to be your own flanking partner, which allows you to really exploit Outflank. Throw in improved critical and combat reflexes and it can get pretty crazy. But remember that abundant step cost 2 KI. Using every turn is going to run down your pool very quickly.
Taking both increases the number of full attacks the character can make. Between the two the character should be able to make a full attack almost all the time.
@Vaelith
yes a bit of both. dimensional agility is a great ace up your sleeve
the reason im sceptical towards dervish is because youre really just paying two feats extra for the 45-120 ft range since its limited to double your speed (and needs 5 ft between each attack). this should be rare compared to the 40 ft from flying kick you already have. and when youre spending feats for savant and outflank youre investing into making it your main combat routine but it wont be because you wont have a swift action free every round
want to enter crane style at start of combat? swift action
want to use hurricane punch? swift action
diamond soul?
swift ki?
extra attack?
dervish does of course have some advantages like mentioned above. its also a great defensive boon if you teleport in, fullattack, and teleport out of enemy reach. but the action economy is harsh even if you solve the ki issue
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