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I didn't want to necro an old thread but I did want to revisit the topic as I think some information had been missed. Here is the original thread.
The legacy version of Trick Magic Item states:
If you activate a magic item that requires a spell attack roll or spell DC and you don’t have the ability to cast spells of the relevant tradition, use your level as your proficiency bonus and the highest of your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifiers. If you’re a master in the appropriate skill for the item’s tradition, you instead use the trained proficiency bonus, and if you’re legendary, you instead use the expert proficiency bonus.The remastered version of Trick Magic Item states:
If you activate a magic item that requires a spell attack modifier or spell DC and you don’t have proficiency in the relevant statistic, use your level as your proficiency bonus and the highest of your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifiers. If you’re a master in the appropriate skill for the item’s tradition, you instead use the trained proficiency bonus; if you’re legendary, you instead use the expert proficiency bonus.
I think the big change is the difference between "tradition" and "statistic", though "statistic" is quite a vague term. What do y'all think? Do you think full spellcasters can now use their spellcasting DC and spell attack bonus on all spells generated from TMI or not?
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This change is because we no more have tradition spell DC instead are now just spell DC for all traditions.
So you can be a wizard with Trick Magic Item and you main statistic is intelligence but you are trying to trick a harm scroll with religion but you don't have a Wisdom Spell DC (because religion uses wis) so you will use you Intelligence + level instead of your level + wisdom. It's basically the same that happen in legacy it's just written differently to represente the fact that we no more have a tradition DC just a Spell DC.
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This change is because we no more have tradition spell DC instead are now just spell DC for all traditions.
So you can be a wizard with Trick Magic Item and you main statistic is intelligence but you are trying to trick a harm scroll with religion but you don't have a Wisdom Spell DC (because religion uses wis) so you will use you Intelligence + level instead of your level + wisdom. It's basically the same that happen in legacy it's just written differently to represente the fact that we no more have a tradition DC just a Spell DC.
I'm not sure that tracks though because occultism is intelligence based, so by that logic, said wizard could cast occult spells with TMI using your full spellcasting DC.
All casters are proficient in spell attack modifier and spell DC. Including those with caster dedications.
So, the rule above applies only to non-casters.
Not exactly spell DC doesn't care about tradition anymore but still cares about your casting stats. If you are trying to cast a spell from a different stat spellcasting you will use this another stat but with full Spell DC proficiency.
For example a lvl 1 wizard with a cleric with +4 int and +1 wis will have:
For arcane spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +2(trained) +4 int = 17
For divine spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +2(trained) +1 int = 14
But Trick Magic Item doesn't follow this same rules. If this wizard doesn't have cleric dedication but have Trick Magic Item and will try to trick a magic item with religion it will use the religion stats:
For arcane spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +2(trained) +4 int = 17
For divine spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +4 int = 14
This happen because you spell DC is linked to intelligence and no more to a tradition. For Trick Magic Item you can't use your normal Spell DC or substitute it for another stats. You instead will use your best mental stat and the proficiency training allowed by the Trick Magic Item action.
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All casters are proficient in spell attack modifier and spell DC. Including those with caster dedications.
So, the rule above applies only to non-casters.
Not exactly spell DC doesn't care about tradition anymore but still cares about your casting stats. If you are trying to cast a spell from a different stat spellcasting you will use this another stat but with full Spell DC proficiency.
For example a lvl 1 wizard with a cleric with +4 int and +1 wis will have:
For arcane spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +2(trained) +4 int = 17
For divine spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +2(trained) +1 int = 14But Trick Magic Item doesn't follow this same rules. If this wizard doesn't have cleric dedication but have Trick Magic Item and will try to trick a magic item with religion it will use the religion stats:
For arcane spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +2(trained) +4 int = 17
For divine spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +4 int = 14This happen because you spell DC is linked to intelligence and no more to a tradition. For Trick Magic Item you can't use your normal Spell DC or substitute it for another stats. You instead will use your best mental stat and the proficiency training allowed by the Trick Magic Item action.
Now use arcane (intelligence) and occult (intelligence) with a legendary proficiency spellcasting wizard in this example instead.
Now use arcane (intelligence) and occult (intelligence) with a legendary proficiency spellcasting wizard in this example instead.All casters are proficient in spell attack modifier and spell DC. Including those with caster dedications.
So, the rule above applies only to non-casters.
Not exactly spell DC doesn't care about tradition anymore but still cares about your casting stats. If you are trying to cast a spell from a different stat spellcasting you will use this another stat but with full Spell DC proficiency.
For example a lvl 1 wizard with a cleric with +4 int and +1 wis will have:
For arcane spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +2(trained) +4 int = 17
For divine spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +2(trained) +1 int = 14But Trick Magic Item doesn't follow this same rules. If this wizard doesn't have cleric dedication but have Trick Magic Item and will try to trick a magic item with religion it will use the religion stats:
For arcane spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +2(trained) +4 int = 17
For divine spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +4 int = 14This happen because you spell DC is linked to intelligence and no more to a tradition. For Trick Magic Item you can't use your normal Spell DC or substitute it for another stats. You instead will use your best mental stat and the proficiency training allowed by the Trick Magic Item action.
I'm not sure that tracks though because occultism is intelligence based, so by that logic, said wizard could cast occult spells with TMI using your full spellcasting DC.This change is because we no more have tradition spell DC instead are now just spell DC for all traditions.
So you can be a wizard with Trick Magic Item and you main statistic is intelligence but you are trying to trick a harm scroll with religion but you don't have a Wisdom Spell DC (because religion uses wis) so you will use you Intelligence + level instead of your level + wisdom. It's basically the same that happen in legacy it's just written differently to represente the fact that we no more have a tradition DC just a Spell DC.
Yes exactly. Because you are an intelligence caster so you use your normal spell DC. This happened because the spell DC is no more linked to tradition. So as the same way if you are a wizard with a witch dedication, once that both uses the same stat they share the same spell DC, no matter if this dedication is arcane, occult, divine or primal tradition.
Putting in a practical example:
A lvl 20 Wizard with just an Occult Witch dedication have the exactly same Spell DC to cast Synesthesia as a scroll. The same happens to a lvl 20 Wizard that tries to do this with Trick Magic Item.
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Yes exactly. Because you are an intelligence caster so you use your normal spell DC. This happened because the spell DC is no more linked to tradition. So as the same way if you are a wizard with a witch dedication, once that both uses the same stat they share the same spell DC, no matter if this dedication is arcane, occult, divine or primal tradition.
What I am gathering from what you are saying is, if you are a level 1 wizard with 4 intelligence, 0 wisdom and no archetype using TMI for a scroll of ill omen (unique to occult tradition), its spell DC will be identical to the wizard's own spell DC.
However, if that same wizard is using TMI for a scroll of harm (unique to divine tradition), its spell DC will be lower, using intelligence AND ONLY level, NOT proficiency.
Exactly just like a wizard with a occult/primal witch also cannot cast harm even having a perfect DC for cast primal/occult spells just getting a level 2 dedication.
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Exactly just like a wizard with a occult/primal witch also cannot cast harm even having a perfect DC for cast primal/occult spells just getting a level 2 dedication.
A wizard with primal witch multiclass can't normally cast ill omen but when using TMI to cast from a scroll of ill omen that wizard gets the full proficiency bonus yet they don't when using TMI to cast from a scroll of harm?
Yes. That was the way that Paizo designers made to adapt Trick Magic Item to new non-tradition locked Spell DC of remaster. I'm not saying that this isn't strange or fair it is just how it's written.
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Yes. That was the way that Paizo designers made to adapt Trick Magic Item to new non-tradition locked Spell DC of remaster. I'm not saying that this isn't strange or fair it is just how it's written.
It's incredibly strange which is why I have been questioning your response so much. Lol. Is there further evidence, such as a statement from a Paizo employee on this?
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All casters are proficient in spell attack modifier and spell DC. Including those with caster dedications.
So, the rule above applies only to non-casters.
Not exactly spell DC doesn't care about tradition anymore but still cares about your casting stats. If you are trying to cast a spell from a different stat spellcasting you will use this another stat but with full Spell DC proficiency.
For example a lvl 1 wizard with a cleric with +4 int and +1 wis will have:
For arcane spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +2(trained) +4 int = 17
For divine spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +2(trained) +1 int = 14But Trick Magic Item doesn't follow this same rules. If this wizard doesn't have cleric dedication but have Trick Magic Item and will try to trick a magic item with religion it will use the religion stats:
For arcane spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +2(trained) +4 int = 17
For divine spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +4 int = 14This happen because you spell DC is linked to intelligence and no more to a tradition. For Trick Magic Item you can't use your normal Spell DC or substitute it for another stats. You instead will use your best mental stat and the proficiency training allowed by the Trick Magic Item action.
The Wizard has proficiency in spell attack modifier and spell DC though. So the "use your level as your proficiency bonus and the highest of your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifiers. " part does not apply.
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The Wizard has proficiency in spell attack modifier and spell DC though. So the "use your level as your proficiency bonus and the highest of your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifiers. " part does not apply.
This is what I WANT it to mean and kinda what I feel like the wording is aiming toward but it's almost a little too good to be true for me to assume this is the case and their use of the word "statistic" is really throwing me off since it's almost meaningless in this system.
The Wizard has proficiency in spell attack modifier and spell DC though. So the "use your level as your proficiency bonus and the highest of your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifiers. " part does not apply.All casters are proficient in spell attack modifier and spell DC. Including those with caster dedications.
So, the rule above applies only to non-casters.
Not exactly spell DC doesn't care about tradition anymore but still cares about your casting stats. If you are trying to cast a spell from a different stat spellcasting you will use this another stat but with full Spell DC proficiency.
For example a lvl 1 wizard with a cleric with +4 int and +1 wis will have:
For arcane spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +2(trained) +4 int = 17
For divine spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +2(trained) +1 int = 14But Trick Magic Item doesn't follow this same rules. If this wizard doesn't have cleric dedication but have Trick Magic Item and will try to trick a magic item with religion it will use the religion stats:
For arcane spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +2(trained) +4 int = 17
For divine spell casting DC: 10 + 1(lvl) +4 int = 14This happen because you spell DC is linked to intelligence and no more to a tradition. For Trick Magic Item you can't use your normal Spell DC or substitute it for another stats. You instead will use your best mental stat and the proficiency training allowed by the Trick Magic Item action.
But your Spell DC is not for same "relevant statistic".
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John R., you really should've used the full feat text as you stripped all the context out of it. "Success: For the rest of the current turn, you can spend actions to activate the item as if you could normally use it."
That's not relevant if a non-spellcaster can also use this feat. They get the same success effect. It's the paragraph that determines the DC (which was changed a bit from pre-remaster) that's in question.
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But your Spell DC is not for same "relevant statistic".Here's the issue: define "statistic" in context of this system.
Forget everything I've written so far.
I was assuming that what he calls Statistics were the attributes (because in legacy they were also called stats). But in fact what the game refers to as Statistics are the entries written on the sheet (attack roll, AC, spell attack, spell DC and so on). In the case of TMI he is probably referring to the Spell Attack/Spell DC combination itself, since there is a note in the rules that refers to it that way.
With that in mind I was actually misinterpreting it. If we consider that the statistic is related to the Spell Attack/Spell DC itself, then it is as The Raven Black pointed out, you only use the values defined in the TMI if you do not have the Spell DC/Spell Attack (remembering however that innate and focus spell DC do not count).
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But your Spell DC is not for same "relevant statistic".Here's the issue: define "statistic" in context of this system.Forget everything I've written so far.
I was assuming that what he calls Statistics were the attributes (because in legacy they were also called stats). But in fact what the game refers to as Statistics are the entries written on the sheet (attack roll, AC, spell attack, spell DC and so on). In the case of TMI he is probably referring to the Spell Attack/Spell DC combination itself, since there is a note in the rules that refers to it that way.
With that in mind I was actually misinterpreting it. If we consider that the statistic is related to the Spell Attack/Spell DC itself, then it is as The Raven Black pointed out, you only use the values defined in the TMI if you do not have the Spell DC/Spell Attack (remembering however that innate and focus spell DC do not count).
Very good find. That definitely seems to put a more concrete definition to "statistic" and I agree that does heavily support The Raven Black's answer.