'Giant Template' clarification

[Aquarist]

Heyas.

After an egregious amount of research, I couldn't find a satisfying answer when it came to the RAW ruling of this template.

Simple Template: Giant (CR +1)
Creatures with the giant template are larger and stronger than their normal-sized kin. This template cannot be applied to creatures that are Colossal.

Quick Rules: +2 to all rolls based on Str or Con, +2 hp/HD, –1 penalty on all rolls based on Dex.

Rebuild Rules: Size increase by one category; AC increase natural armor by +3; Attacks increase dice rolled by 1 step; Ability Scores +4 size bonus to Str and Con, –2 Dex.

In particular I want to know what it means with 'Attacks increase dice rolled by 1 step.' Let's use a CR 2 crocodile for example. It normally has a 1d8 bite attack and a 1d12 tail slap. Would the template increase the damage dice from the bite attack from a 1d8 to a 1d10 or a 2d6? And with the tail slap, would it go from a 1d12 to a 3d6 or a 2d8? Normally a size increase would increase the damage dice by two steps, but the template specifically calls for only one step. The people in my table argue for both, but is there a definitive answer for this?

[Melkiador]

That kind of question gets asked frequently
https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t3f

Quote:

When the damage dealt by a creature’s weapons or natural attacks changes due to a change in its size (or the size of its weapon), use the following rules to determine the new damage.

• If the size increases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and increase the damage by two steps. If the initial size is Small or lower (or is treated as Small or lower) or the initial damage is 1d6 or less, instead increase the damage by one step.
• If the size decreases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and decrease the damage by two steps. If the initial size is Medium or lower (or is treated as Medium or lower) or the initial damage is 1d8 or less, instead decrease the damage by one step.
• If the exact number of original dice is not found on this chart, apply the following before adjusting the damage dice. If the damage is a number of d6, find the next lowest number of d6 on the chart and use that number of d8 as the original damage value (for example, 10d6 would instead be treated as 8d8). If the damage is a number of d8, find the next highest number of d8 on the chart and use that number of d6 as the original damage value (for example, 5d8 would instead be treated as 6d6). Once you have the new damage value, adjust by the number of steps noted above.
• If the die type is not referenced on this chart, apply the following rules before adjusting the damage dice. 2d4 counts as 1d8 on the chart, 3d4 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers of d4. 1d12 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers of d12.
• Finally, 2d10 increases to 4d8 and decreases to 2d8, regardless of the initial size, and so on for higher numbers of d10.

Damage Dice Progression Chart
1
1d2
1d3
1d4
1d6
1d8
1d10
2d6
2d8
3d6
3d8
4d6
4d8
6d6
6d8
8d6
8d8
12d6
12d8
16d6

So a croc being larger than small size to start, that 1d8 becomes 2d6. And the 1d12 becomes 3d6

[TxSam88]

Wouldn't this be a case of specific rule overriding a general rule, So even though the FAQ says to increase the damage by two steps, the template would be a more specific rule, and it says to increase by one step.

[Melkiador]

That template precedes the FAQ by a lot. The issue is that “step” gets used in a confusing redundant way here. There is the size damage increase step and the damage dice chart step. No rules outside of the damage dice chart are referring specifically to the steps of the damage dice chart

[Java Man]

Also note that the Bestiary Universal Monster Rules has a table of typical natural weapon damage by size, I'd think the template was referring to that table

[Aquarist]

Melkiador wrote:

That template precedes the FAQ by a lot. The issue is that “step” gets used in a confusing redundant way here. There is the size damage increase step and the damage dice chart step. No rules outside of the damage dice chart are referring specifically to the steps of the damage dice chart

This is exactly why this has been so divisive at the table. There's so many different damage steps referred on the FAQ and rules that no one knows which to follow since the template doesn't specify.

Java Man wrote:

Also note that the Bestiary Universal Monster Rules has a table of typical natural weapon damage by size, I'd think the template was referring to that table

Like this one, right? I forgot about this one, too. It presents itself as a THIRD option. In this case the bite would go from 1d8 > 2d6, but the tail slap would go from 1d12 > 2d8.

I guess this is just something you have to reach an agreement with the GM.

[Melkiador]

If you take the faq as being a final follow up, it’s pretty decisive. And that is indeed what it is, coming years after many arguments like this. You increase the damage by one step. The creature is bigger than small so you take the two steps on the faq chart.

If your GM wants to do something else, then it’s probably not worth arguing about. It’s only a couple damage of difference. But basically everyone on these boards will agree with what we already told you.

Damage Comparison:
2d8 is average 9 damage.
3d6 is average 10.5 damage.
That 1.5 damage isn't really going to be noticeable. Especially, after throwing in damage modifiers.

[Java Man]

Should have added to my previous comment: but I just use the faq chart for everything for sake of simplicity and completeness. (And think everyone should for those reasons).