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It sounds like you want Champion and just want a second opinion. :)
As a GM: I've never had a player who took Champion Archetype regret it later. It's an extremely good archetype. Lay on Hands is useful to just about every character. The reactions are by and large pretty strong and can prevent significant amounts of damage. It doesn't take any setup actions, which matters on a class like Thaumaturge that already has setup actions baked in.
I'll also note that Regalia itself has scaling diplomacy bonuses: the bonuses it gives scale up when you improve the implement to Adept and applies to more things.
All that said, Marshal is a good archetype as well and there's no real wrong answer between the two. :) But IMO between the two I think Champion has more to offer in your case.
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My thought on all this is that Thaumaturges are desperately short on actions. Pets don't work because they need actions every turn to be effective. Some of the Marshal stuff will also require actions, so keep an eye out.
The Champion archetype is fairly solid with thaumaturges, but keep in mind that implements with reactions will compete for Champion reactions.
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I took Marshal on my Thaumaturge. The aura offset the to-hit malus due to KAS and as soon as i got reactive strike (lvl 8) i changed off weapon implement which was way too situative. At 6 i took Snap out of It, which helped turn a few battles - getting hit by your confused barbarian is painful.
If you don't have a bard or somebody who likes to cast bless, i think inspiring marshal aura is really good.
Champion is also a very good choice i think. The low reflex save was a bit of a weakness, and bulwark helps together with the +1 ac.
Taking paladins reaction is similar to reactive strike. Lay on hands is nice to have, gets stronger if you get more focus points later.
Despite using a reach weapon (Asp), mobility was an issue and taking psychic archetype solved that for me. 1 action teleport was super good.
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I've got a PFS thaumaturge with champion dedication (liberator) and I've been really satisfied with it. The reaction has prevented massive amounts of damage because it often lets my allies take a step back from a monster, getting them out of reach of a second attack.Wait. How does it let them take a step back? I’m missing something.
It works like this:
Trigger An enemy damages, Grabs, or Grapples your ally, and both are within 15 feet of you.
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You free an ally from restraint. If the trigger was an ally taking damage, the ally gains resistance to all damage against the triggering damage equal to 2 + your level. The ally can attempt to break free of effects grabbing, restraining, immobilizing, or paralyzing them. They either attempt a new save against one such effect that allows a save, or attempt to Escape from one effect as a free action. If they can move, the ally can Step as a free action, even if they didn’t need to escape.
So a pretty common situation is:
Monster moves up to ally (action 1)
Monster strikes (action 2)
You react with liberating step, your ally steps away
Monster can't strike with action 3, because your ally is now too far away.
So you've prevented damage with the resistance, but also by avoiding a second attack.
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I played a Thaumaturge/Martial till level 8. I'm sure we'll go back to it eventually, but we decided to finish off some of our almost-finished campaigns before continuing with the new ones =P
I will say the biggest weakness of the Thaumaturge in my opinion is action economy. The Martial absolutely does not help with this. However, if you can get the actions in you end up with some nice synergy that really does help offset your weaknesses and augment your strengths.
Also my Thaumaturge was a Mirror/Amulet Thaumaturge. One thing about the Mirror is that on its own it isn't very good. Putting yourself in 2 places seems good, but you don't get more attacks, you just get hit more. What it does for me is allow me to have more spaces potentially affected by my Amulet's Abeyance reaction or my Attack of Opportunity. Notably, the Martial's Aura is NOT doubled when you use your Mirror, as the Mirror clearly states: "any effects you generate come from only one of your positions", and your Martial's aura is an effect.
For this reason I think the Regalia actually could pair well here. When you use your Mirror's Reflection action you have to choose which version gets the aura, but if you have 2 auras you can give 1 aura to each version. If you also take the Attack of Opportunity feat from Marshal then you also have a reaction that can be taken from either space, which means the chances of you using it each turn is much greater .
With all that said, the Champion is pretty much nothing but bonus for your Thaumaturge. Heavier armour, a defensive reaction for your allies and a single-action focus-point heal ... this pretty much gives you the Amulet and the Chalice in 3 archetype feats. And on top of that, it's really not costing you any actions. Very solid.
So it's up to you really. I took Marshal because I LOVE the flavour of it, and I like being a support front-liner. I also made my character a Reflection heritage and found the name Reinier, which is a Palindrome and apparently means "Combat Advice" or something similar, which fits the Marshal theme perfectly. If you're struggling with action economy I'd definitely recommend the Champion because the Marshal will do the opposite of help, but if you're doing ok with that then whatever floats your boat.
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I use the mirror both ways!
It's great for the utility of getting up 15 feet, or getting to the other side of that fence.
Combat usually goes like this.
First round:
◈ Stride
◈ Exploit Vulnerability
◈ Strike
If I am lucky, I get a mortal weakness that I can use against all the creatures in the fight! Most of the time though I have to Personal Antithesis each one.
So it is that second round where I generally get to use the mirror.
◈ Mirror - often times I use it so that I can flank not with myself, but with 2 other party members.
◈ Exploit Vulnerability (if the first guy went down too fast)
◈ Strike
Another advantage of using the mirror is that you can leave one of you within touch distance of the party medic while the other is 15 feet away. There's so many options for strategy with the mirror!
Thanks so much MrCharisma.
On the topic of the mirror implement, how much of an action challenge is it to add that to combat scenarios? Or do you use it more out of combat, e.g. my image is on the other side of that window, and oh look I'm inside the house now.
My wife plays a mirror thaumaturge in Kingmaker. It's super useful in both scenarios:
- In exploration mode, it's a short range teleport. That solves some problems involving obstacles pretty easily.- In combat, it lets you do fun things like "oh I got swallowed but that was the mirror me, I'm actually out here". This happened multiple times in one fight and made it WAY easier.
- The adept benefit adds some damage but more importantly can make it so if one version of you is out of range, a monster can't hit you a second time since you're not actually there after the first hit.
I think its big downside is hand economy rather than action economy: you need to keep it out for it to be useful so swapping it for another implement doesn't work super well. But she's playing a Ratfolk and has a Bite attack, so both hands are free for implements which makes it kind of a non-issue. A Thaumaturge who only has one hand for multiple implements is going to find it trickier.
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I think its big downside is hand economy rather than action economy: you need to keep it out for it to be useful so swapping it for another implement doesn't work super well.
From the "second implement" rule:
"While you're holding an implement in one hand, you can quickly switch it with another implement you're wearing to use an action from the implement you're switching to. To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action"Mirror should be fine there, but other implements without active actions or reactions are more difficult, best to talk to your DM about it.
I decided against the mirror as the defenses of the class are not the best, with 8hp you should think about giving enemies more access to attack and flank you.
Adding psychic archetype gives you access to a focus spell 1 action teleport, i like it better than the mirror.
I think its big downside is hand economy rather than action economy: you need to keep it out for it to be useful so swapping it for another implement doesn't work super well.From the "second implement" rule:
"While you're holding an implement in one hand, you can quickly switch it with another implement you're wearing to use an action from the implement you're switching to. To do so, you can Interact as a free action immediately before executing the implement's action"Mirror should be fine there, but other implements without active actions or reactions are more difficult, best to talk to your DM about it.
But it doesn't still work if you put it away, does it? Like if you mirror so you're in two places and then swap the mirror out, do you stay in two places even though you're not holding the mirror anymore?
Reading it again now, I guess nothing actually says it ends if you put away the implement after activating it, but it doesn't seem to make a ton of sense that the mirror is still reflecting something when its in your pocket.
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But it doesn't still work if you put it away, does it? Like if you mirror so you're in two places and then swap the mirror out, do you stay in two places even though you're not holding the mirror anymore?
Reading it again now, I guess nothing actually says it ends if you put away the implement after activating it, but it doesn't seem to make a ton of sense that the mirror is still reflecting something when its in your pocket.
Ah, i see what you mean. I would say this is an instance where you should not put too much real-life logic into game rules. Maybe don't put the mirror into your pocket, but let it dangle from your belt, it still reflects stuff. And otherwise just say "its magic".
Ah, i see what you mean. I would say this is an instance where you should not put too much real-life logic into game rules. Maybe don't put the mirror into your pocket, but let it dangle from your belt, it still reflects stuff. And otherwise just say "its magic".But it doesn't still work if you put it away, does it? Like if you mirror so you're in two places and then swap the mirror out, do you stay in two places even though you're not holding the mirror anymore?
Reading it again now, I guess nothing actually says it ends if you put away the implement after activating it, but it doesn't seem to make a ton of sense that the mirror is still reflecting something when its in your pocket.
Yeah nothing in the Mirror Implement says the effect ends if you put the Implement away. Nothing says it ends if the Mirror is destroyed even.
As far as "putting it away", the example given actually calls out "wearing" your amulets:
For example, if you had your lantern implement in one hand, a weapon in the other, and a chalice implement you were wearing, you could swap your lantern for your chalice to use its reaction.
So I think it's expected that they're still "on your person", it's just that you have to pick which one is in your hand when you use them.
This CAN be a concern with certain implements however, specifically the passive Implements . You can switch to a new Implement as a free action, but only when using an action associated with that Implement. For the Mirror, the Chalice and the Wand these all have action costs associated with them, and for the Weapon, Amulet and Bell these are all reactions , but for the passive Implemnts there is no action to use so if you switch out to another Implement then you might have to spend an action to pull them out again before they work.
Now personally I rule that the level 9 Intensify Vulnerability counts for this, but not everyone agrees. Even with that, you might lose the abilities of your Regalia when you use another Implement's action or reaction, and you may need to use the Regalia's Intensify Vulnerability effect to renew the aura. If you have a permissive GM they may allow you to continue the aura effect, but it's something you should discuss with them.
Thanks so much MrCharisma.
On the topic of the mirror implement, how much of an action challenge is it to add that to combat scenarios? Or do you use it more out of combat, e.g. my image is on the other side of that window, and oh look I'm inside the house now.
You're welcome =)
It's not something I would use Every turn, but it did get used, and often.
My turn 1 usually consisted of beginning my Marshal's aura, designating an enemy for my Exploit Vulnerability and moving into a defensive position. Turn 2 often involved using the mirror to help set up flanks or give myself more options to use my Attack of Opportunity or Amulet's Abeyance, but there were turns where I didn't use it because the action cost was too high.
It's also worth knowing that the SYMPATHETIC VULNERABILITIES feat makes the Marshal's Attack of Opportunity a lot better. The Weapon Implement is essentially an attack of Opportunity, and has more triggers than an AoO. However the Weapon Implement's AoO can Only be taken against the target of your Exploit Vulnerability, while the Marshal's AoO can be taken against anyone. Since a huge portion of the Thaumaturge's damage comes from Exploit Vulnerability the Weapon Implement works well as a deterrent, but the Marshal's AoO can be a bit more flexible. By increasing the potential damage output on more targets you have more opportunities to get that AoO off, and with Sympathetic Vulnerabilities you can make that damage more potent.
The example of using my Amulet/Mirror/Marshal meant that I could have 1 Mirror version near the target of my Exploit Vulnerability so that I could potentially protect my allies with Amulet's Abeyance, and 1 version nearby potentially blocking a charge-lane by threatening AoOs. I wouldn't be able to use both Amulet's Abeyance and an AoO in the same turn, but by threatening both I could take whichever reaction seemed more important on any given turn. Later on there is a class feat to get a 2nd reaction, the 2nd reaction only works with your Implements but that still means the 1st reaction could be used for either an Implement or an AoO.
I did have a thought about the Mirror and Regalia that probably makes it Not work.
Round 1 you have your Regalia in your hand, and you're giving bonuses to your allies. You decide to use your Mirror. You get a free action to swap Implements, which means you don't have to spend an action taking out your Mirror, but doing so means your Regalia is no longer active. You use your Mirror Implement, which takes 1 action. Then in order to take advantage of your Regalia you have to spend another action taking it out, this doesn't negate the Mirror effect, but it is an extra action. This leaves you with only 1 action. Alternatively you can use the Mirror in 1 hand and the Regalia in the other, but then you don't have any actions for attacks, and you are technically a martial character.
On top of that, you actually Don't get a force multiplier by using the Mirror and Amulet together. If it gave you 2 auras that might make it totally worthwhile. Even though they wouldn't stack you could buff more allies with your Regalia. But it doesn't work that way, the Mirror Implement effect explicitly states that any effect that comes from you only comes from 1 version of yourself. An aura is an effect.
So I actually don't think the Mirror works well with the passive Implements, but it DOES work well with reaction Implements . So the Amulet Implement or Champion's Reaction work well with the Mirror, and weapon Implement or the Marshal's AoO works well with the Mirror. And they'd work even better when you get a 2nd reaction from a class feat. I think the Marsha's aura can also work well, you can still get an aura for 1 version of yourself, but the Mirror doesn't explicitly work as a force multiplier for this.
Coming a bit late to the party, but I found the amulet was actually working better for me than the champion reaction, for one main reason: as a thaumaturge, thou art fragile.
Most of the time, I'm actually the squishiest frontline with my d8 hp and no shield, that compares defavorably to the fighter or monk. So champion reaction does absolutely nothing when I'm focused - while amulet does wonders. Not only can you use it on yourself, but you also get a lingering DR (5 and later 10 is nothing to scoff at) that really helps when you're focused. And if you really need to go full defense, you can exploit vulnerability for some AC/saves against your target.
In my experience, the thaumaturge shouldn't try to help his mate survive, but try to survive himself ^^
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Since moving away from weapon implement has been mentioned multiple times: Don't discount the usefulness to be able to react to concentration effects and disrupt those in a campaign based in a magical academy!
Especially at higher levels, my Thaumaturge in SoT became a real problem for enemy casters! Disrupt on normal hit prevented so many spells...
Yes, that is really strong. But lvl 17 is a long way in, and counting on a critical hit against relevant enemies before that is more of a lucky coincidence.
Did you interrupt anything that had concentrate, but not manipulate? And if yes, how did you know?
Since moving away from weapon implement has been mentioned multiple times: Don't discount the usefulness to be able to react to concentration effects and disrupt those in a campaign based in a magical academy!
Especially at higher levels, my Thaumaturge in SoT became a real problem for enemy casters! Disrupt on normal hit prevented so many spells...Yes, that is really strong. But lvl 17 is a long way in, and counting on a critical hit against relevant enemies before that is more of a lucky coincidence.
Did you interrupt anything that had concentrate, but not manipulate? And if yes, how did you know?
Its hard to know unless the GM tells you, or you already know what it can do from a recall knowledge.
That said, the implement's interruption also works on move actions, and it can disrupt them (unlike Reactive Strike). It's quite versatile, especially in a high level game where if all you have to do is hit, you can just "nope" a huge number of enemy options.
I don't view it as a must take implement, but my Weapon/Tome Thaumaturge had a whip and I got a ton of mileage out of that reaction (the whip was fun with reach/trip and a couple of rogues in the party, including a ranged one).