Hi Paizo community and team!
I know we are way past the playtest and the Guardian is likely heavily in development, but I have what may seem like a weird ask:
Please, give some thought to class options (an archetype or feats) that improve how the Guardian plays out with medium armor or unarmored.
The reason I'm asking this is simple: heavy armor is massively more powerful than any of the other options.
+1 AC over the rest of the armors, which cap at +5 vs +6 for Heavy, is a huge incentive to go that route.
Right now, there is only ONE class that gets a major defensive benefit to not using Heavy armor: the Monk.
Before, the Barbarian used to be an option too, but with Armored Rager being a class choice, there's few incentives to remain with Medium Armor.
For this reason, rather than keep centralizing all defensive characters around Heavy Armor, I'd love to see maybe some class archetypes that trade features to make the Guardian function better without Heavy Armor, or perhaps less features/Class Feats that increase in effectiveness with heavier armors.
It seems like we keep getting more and more incentives towards it when the game already rewards using it baseline.
Thoughts?
What about the speed loss in heavy armor?
The additional bulk?
the str req wouldn't be a problem for a guardian since its key stat at least.
I bring these up mainly because I am watching my players deal with the encounters I throw at them and speed matters a lot, bulk is coming into play as well. These are not negligible costs to heavy armor even for a str 18 character.
What about the speed loss in heavy armor?
The additional bulk?
the str req wouldn't be a problem for a guardian since its key stat at least.I bring these up mainly because I am watching my players deal with the encounters I throw at them and speed matters a lot, bulk is coming into play as well. These are not negligible costs to heavy armor even for a str 18 character.
Bulk is rarely an issue in any games I've played for STR characters, it's very binary.
Speed is notable but I don't think it's an issue comparable with being -1 AC.
What about the speed loss in heavy armor?
The additional bulk?
the str req wouldn't be a problem for a guardian since its key stat at least.I bring these up mainly because I am watching my players deal with the encounters I throw at them and speed matters a lot, bulk is coming into play as well. These are not negligible costs to heavy armor even for a str 18 character.
Bulk is rarely an issue in any games I've played for STR characters, it's very binary.
Speed is notable but I don't think it's an issue comparable with being -1 AC.
Ive seen my slowest players lose entire rounds to movement but sometimes its only an extra action. Either way getting one less action or losing 3 just to get into melee can be severe a cost enough to balance out the +1 AC. And I mean multiple times in a combat not just once. I will have faster creatures use that speed to their advantage.
For bulk it limits what you can gear up with and carry.
Traveling can be more dangerous in wild places when your trying to do it encumbered.
The entire party is slowed down by the slowest character in hexploration.
Some activities are not useable because of the encumbered status.
The amount of collective supplies armaments and loot the party can carry with them is limited by bulk in areas where carts are not feasible to bring.
Of course magic can help but thats another resource.
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I can say, from my personal experience, that there haven't been a lot of fights where +1 AC would have swayed the combat one way or the other, but I have seen fights where the ability to move and engage in fewer actions has been the difference between an enemy getting extra turns.
Evidence: I have been playing PFS and running a home game of Rusthenge -> Seven Dooms for Sandpoint. Consistantly the ability to move around enemies, making them eat up actions to catch up to you/reposition to get line of sight, or the ability to approach with a single action, attack, then move away, has been a better option than having an extra +1 AC and just attempting to tank hits and kept more players alive by both wasting the enemy's time and downing enemies before they have a chance to retaliate.
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I can say, from my personal experience, that there haven't been a lot of fights where +1 AC would have swayed the combat one way or the other, but I have seen fights where the ability to move and engage in fewer actions has been the difference between an enemy getting extra turns.
It costs a first level class feat but Sudden Charge just about eliminates the issue unless you're doing something like playing a Dwarf or a character without the minimum Str for the armor.
And if it matters significantly in your campaign then there is Fleet, boots of Striding and a Wand of L2 Tailwind (at level 5 or 6+ you can probably afford most or all of those).
Unless the GM is going really out of their way to either pick fast monsters or just raising the movements on NPCs a speed of 30 or 35 is usually enough. And lots of characters in Plate mail can get that by L5 or so. Heck, if you REALLY care you can get it by level 1.
Unarmored honestly doesn't need more options; it's basically the default (with the bare minimum starting at Light armor, anyway) because the game assumes you will always boost Constitution, Wisdom, and more importantly, Dexterity, every chance you get, because the game assumes you will not dump/avoid boosting your Save-based attributes.
Medium Armor, on the other hand, needs something to compensate for the fact that it's literally a trap armor option, mostly because it tricks you to dumping Dexterity once you hit your MDB. Sure, there is the argument of "Well, you can keep boosting your Dexterity, just switch to Light Armor later," but now we're basically choosing to avoid Medium Armor in the higher levels simply because we can't sustain our Reflex Saves while wearing it without boosting Dexterity. And you have the added Strength costs that not every class can afford, so now we're back to the classic "You can either have the AC or you can be slow and bad at skills, pick one," a choice no other armor types have to make. (No, Heavy Armor doesn't have to make this choice because Heavy Armor wearers will always have 18 Strength or more, and can afford to do so since they now essentially have 2 attributes they can boost that aren't tied to saves, not just 1.)
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Unarmored honestly doesn't need more options; it's basically the default (with the bare minimum starting at Light armor, anyway) because the game assumes you will always boost Constitution, Wisdom, and more importantly, Dexterity, every chance you get, because the game assumes you will not dump/avoid boosting your Save-based attributes.
Medium Armor, on the other hand, needs something to compensate for the fact that it's literally a trap armor option, mostly because it tricks you to dumping Dexterity once you hit your MDB. Sure, there is the argument of "Well, you can keep boosting your Dexterity, just switch to Light Armor later," but now we're basically choosing to avoid Medium Armor in the higher levels simply because we can't sustain our Reflex Saves while wearing it without boosting Dexterity. And you have the added Strength costs that not every class can afford, so now we're back to the classic "You can either have the AC or you can be slow and bad at skills, pick one," a choice no other armor types have to make. (No, Heavy Armor doesn't have to make this choice because Heavy Armor wearers will always have 18 Strength or more, and can afford to do so since they now essentially have 2 attributes they can boost that aren't tied to saves, not just 1.)
I dont think the game does assume that you boost anything in particular except key stat. i would also say that thinking limits character design in an unnecessary way. I mean a character that boosts str int cha and only one of the save contributing stats will be just fine and have different options open to them than a character that boosts dex con wis and one other.
Unarmored honestly doesn't need more options; it's basically the default (with the bare minimum starting at Light armor, anyway) because the game assumes you will always boost Constitution, Wisdom, and more importantly, Dexterity, every chance you get, because the game assumes you will not dump/avoid boosting your Save-based attributes.
Medium Armor, on the other hand, needs something to compensate for the fact that it's literally a trap armor option, mostly because it tricks you to dumping Dexterity once you hit your MDB. Sure, there is the argument of "Well, you can keep boosting your Dexterity, just switch to Light Armor later," but now we're basically choosing to avoid Medium Armor in the higher levels simply because we can't sustain our Reflex Saves while wearing it without boosting Dexterity. And you have the added Strength costs that not every class can afford, so now we're back to the classic "You can either have the AC or you can be slow and bad at skills, pick one," a choice no other armor types have to make. (No, Heavy Armor doesn't have to make this choice because Heavy Armor wearers will always have 18 Strength or more, and can afford to do so since they now essentially have 2 attributes they can boost that aren't tied to saves, not just 1.)
I dont think the game does assume that you boost anything in particular except key stat. i would also say that thinking limits character design in an unnecessary way. I mean a character that boosts str int cha and only one of the save contributing stats will be just fine and have different options open to them than a character that boosts dex con wis and one other.
A character boosting Intelligence (unless a key stat, an absolute waste of a boost) or Charisma (unless invested in the Charisma skills or a key stat, yet another waste of a boost) over Constitution (HP and Fort Saves) and Dexterity (AC, Reflex Saves, a few skills) or Wisdom (Initiative, Will Saves, Perception, numerous skills) means they are going to be more prone to death, and far easier to either hit or nuke to oblivion with Reflex saves, or control/nuke with Will saves. Heavy Armor was specifically given the Bulwark trait to cover up one of those obvious flaws. (With Wisdom not having such a thing, because I guess apparently getting destroyed by Will Saves as a Heavy Armor user is fine, but Reflex saves are not?) Let's remove Bulwark from the game, and feel free to tell me again how dumping a save stat isn't bad, because Paizo's current design disagrees with you.
A character boosting Intelligence (unless a key stat, an absolute waste of a boost) or Charisma (unless invested in the Charisma skills or a key stat, yet another waste of a boost) over Constitution (HP and Fort Saves) and Dexterity (AC, Reflex Saves, a few skills) or Wisdom (Initiative, Will Saves,...Unarmored honestly doesn't need more options; it's basically the default (with the bare minimum starting at Light armor, anyway) because the game assumes you will always boost Constitution, Wisdom, and more importantly, Dexterity, every chance you get, because the game assumes you will not dump/avoid boosting your Save-based attributes.
Medium Armor, on the other hand, needs something to compensate for the fact that it's literally a trap armor option, mostly because it tricks you to dumping Dexterity once you hit your MDB. Sure, there is the argument of "Well, you can keep boosting your Dexterity, just switch to Light Armor later," but now we're basically choosing to avoid Medium Armor in the higher levels simply because we can't sustain our Reflex Saves while wearing it without boosting Dexterity. And you have the added Strength costs that not every class can afford, so now we're back to the classic "You can either have the AC or you can be slow and bad at skills, pick one," a choice no other armor types have to make. (No, Heavy Armor doesn't have to make this choice because Heavy Armor wearers will always have 18 Strength or more, and can afford to do so since they now essentially have 2 attributes they can boost that aren't tied to saves, not just 1.)
I dont think the game does assume that you boost anything in particular except key stat. i would also say that thinking limits character design in an unnecessary way. I mean a character that boosts str int cha and only one of the save contributing stats will be just fine and have different options open to them than a character that boosts dex con wis and one other.
I find it odd to use the term stat dumping in this game.
I feel like the fortification rune is enough for medium armor users that don't want to spend a feat for heavy armor or want to move at full speed. Even with dex at +4 you lose nothing wearing medium armor other than 1 bulk.