So its a very simple concept i saw on an old reddit post. Start as a monkey boy/girl(vanara) and take 18 levels in arcanist. Because vanara's FCB lets you add 1/4 to the arcanist’s effective class level when determining the effects of any two arcanist exploits that the arcanist has.
Then take a level in wizard and crossblooded sorcerer each, making you a arcanist 18/wizard 1/sorcerer 1.
Take bloodline development as an exploit, use your FCB on it to make you effectively a lvl 23(18+1+4) sorcerer for your 2 bloodlines. Giving you 2 bloodline arcanas and your pick of bloodline powers. I am not sure if you gain bloodline feats tho so that needs to be clarified.
Now take school understanding as an exploit use your FCB on it to make you again effectively a lvl 23 wizard for your arcane school. So you gain the 2 powers for your spell school. And maybe an alternate capstone? Idk some people on reddit said you could since 20th level wizard get it and you count as one. Thoughts?
This is all possible because both bloodline development and school understanding end with the line:If the arcanist already has a bloodline/arcane school (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline/ arcane school when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline/arcane school.
It's probably legal, but also it's not that great. Those little class abilities will pale in comparison to your 9th level spells. The level 20 arcanist will have more 9th level spells than this dipping build, and is thus superior in my opinion. And at level 20, your character is basically retired anyway.
You could take the wizard and sorcerer dips earlier in your career, but then your spellcasting progression is painfully slowed.
It's probably legal, but also it's not that great. Those little class abilities will pale in comparison to your 9th level spells. And at level 20, your character is basically retired anyway.
You could take the wizard and sorcerer dips earlier in your career, but then your spellcasting progression is painfully slowed.
Along similar lines, consider being a dragon disciple using spell specialist arcanist as your spontaneous spellcaster prerequisite. You can possibly bootstrap yourself into the draconic bloodline.
Dont really appreciate your condescension mister but i will humor you. I would lose 2 9th level spells but in exchange i gain 2 bloodline arcanas, my pick of 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th and 20th bloodline powers from any 2 bloodlines and the full wizard school. Arcanas can be useful at any level and would you really call a wizards arcane school little class abilities.
If i say wanted to be an enchantment specialist, i would take undead and impossbile bloodlines, and the level 20 controller school makes it so even if the target makes the save i can control them for atleast one round while also letting me target humanoid undead and constructs with enchantment spells. Also my bloodline powers and school powers are far stronger than even maxed level single classed wizards or sorcerers.
And i only spent 2 exploits, i still have 8 left at least and all my feats are still free. So i would hardly call it this that weak.
2 less casts, but also 2 less preparations as an arcanist. Also 1 fewer 8th level preparation. You are also using up two of your exploits, which while not huge is still another cost. And you are casting at 2 spell levels less which is important for things like spell resistance which is fairly common at that level. Of course, you can compensate that with a feat, but then you are costing yourself a feat.
It's not like you are nerfing your character by doing this, but it's also fairly weak as far as a level 20 "exploit" goes.
1) I think there are issues multiclassing into parent classes from the hybrid class... have to examine in detail.
There are no issues multiclassing them. That was a hold over from the playtest and wasnt included in the final release. The only issues you might have are redundant class features.
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2) if you want power, just go wizard specialist. Nothing beats the 'old' CRB class. In fact you have enough power to dip 1 or maybe 2 levels and still be rather good. Arcanist is not better than wizard, it is different.
I've had pretty good success with a build very similar to this one (18/1/1) but didn't use any Vanara tricks, just half-elf and the pheonix/unicorn bloodlines combined with the Life subschool of necromancy to heal way too much as an arcane caster. Capstones were either unimportant or unnecessary.
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3) avoid arcane prestige classes. Mystic Theurge per RAW just nerfs you too much.
The Bloodline Development exploit specifically lets you select one bloodline. It doesn't matter if you already have two, the exploit only works for one of them.
You would have to take Extra Arcanist Exploit as your 3rd-level feat (selecting bloodline development and School Understanding) if you want both to be at level 23. Without that - if you took Bloodline Development as your regular 1st-level arcanist exploit you couldn't use your FCB on School Understanding until 3rd. Because you can't increase something you don't have. Doesn't really matter at 20th level, but does change when you get the 20th-level power.
You definitely don't get the alternate capstone. Having an arcane school doesn't automatically make you a wizard. Having a bloodline doesn't automatically make you a sorcerer. Having a domain doesn't automatically make you a cleric (just ask an inquisitor). And even if it did (it doesn't), the capstones are based on class level, not the level of an individual ability.
Spoiler:
The vanara alternate FCB for arcanist is a lot of fun. One of my favorite "I really want to make this build" builds was a vanara with Conjuration School Understanding. Without any dipping, I could make a summon spell permanent at 16th level.
Passive aggressiveness serves little purpose. This seems to be an issue with retroactively editing and then deleting posts, and expecting others to go back and adjust their posts accordingly.
The Bloodline Development exploit specifically lets you select one bloodline. It doesn't matter if you already have two, the exploit only works for one of them.
You would have to take Extra Arcanist Exploit as your 3rd-level feat (selecting bloodline development and School Understanding) if you want both to be at level 23. Without that - if you took Bloodline Development as your regular 1st-level arcanist exploit you couldn't use your FCB on School Understanding until 3rd. Because you can't increase something you don't have. Doesn't really matter at 20th level, but does change when you get the 20th-level power.
You definitely don't get the alternate capstone. Having an arcane school doesn't automatically make you a wizard. Having a bloodline doesn't automatically make you a sorcerer. Having a domain doesn't automatically make you a cleric (just ask an inquisitor). And even if it did (it doesn't), the capstones are based on class level, not the level of an individual ability.
** spoiler omitted **
Crossblooded is a sorcerer archetype that modifies your bloodline to let you choose from 2 bloodlines and mix and match their powers tho. It is still one bloodline for the purposes of the development i think. And you off set the restriction from the bloodline development ability by taking that extra level in sorcerer.
Lets say we rule it your way and i take crossblooded anyway. How can i develope one of the bloodlines without leveling the other? Am i now a 23rd level fey/1st level serptine crossblooded sorcerer? Thats not how crossblooded is ruled as its one bloodline modified to let you choose its powers from 2 normal bloodlines
The Bloodline Development exploit specifically lets you select one bloodline. It doesn't matter if you already have two, the exploit only works for one of them.
You would have to take Extra Arcanist Exploit as your 3rd-level feat (selecting bloodline development and School Understanding) if you want both to be at level 23. Without that - if you took Bloodline Development as your regular 1st-level arcanist exploit you couldn't use your FCB on School Understanding until 3rd. Because you can't increase something you don't have. Doesn't really matter at 20th level, but does change when you get the 20th-level power.
You definitely don't get the alternate capstone. Having an arcane school doesn't automatically make you a wizard. Having a bloodline doesn't automatically make you a sorcerer. Having a domain doesn't automatically make you a cleric (just ask an inquisitor). And even if it did (it doesn't), the capstones are based on class level, not the level of an individual ability.
** spoiler omitted **
Crossblooded is a sorcerer archetype that modifies your bloodline to let you choose from 2 bloodlines and mix and match their powers tho. It is still one bloodline for the purposes of the development i think. And you off set the restriction from the bloodline development ability by taking that extra level in sorcerer.
Lets say we rule it your way and i take crossblooded anyway. How can i develope one of the bloodlines without leveling the other? Am i now a 23rd level fey/1st level serptine crossblooded sorcerer? Thats not how crossblooded is ruled as its one bloodline modified to let you choose its powers from 2 normal bloodlines
The Arcanist exploit says "chose 1 bloodline".
So for the exploit you chose one bloodline, lets say you chose the undead bloodline.
If you than take a level or levels in sorcerer you stack your levels for the purpose of his bloodline and only this bloodline.
So for both bloodlines of the crossblooded Sorcerer you count as a sorcerer level 1 and for this one bloodline they have both, you can stack your levels.
You will gain both bloodline arcana, -2 to will saves etc (like a crossblooed sorcerer level 1).
Than you determine what bloodline both have (lets stay with undead) and for this one you count as a sorcerer of level 20 (or whatever you have combined).
The exploit only lets you chose from one bloodline, so you only chose from one. In my opinion that quite clear and simple.
Choosing a bloodline is only for the first option. The alternative doesn’t actually have that limitation.
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If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline.
It doesn’t even seem to be limited to one bloodline. So if you had a dip of sorcerer and a dip of bloodrager, your levels would stack for both of those bloodlines.
The Arcanist exploit says "chose 1 bloodline".
So for the exploit you chose one bloodline, lets say you chose the undead bloodline.
If you than take a level or levels in sorcerer you stack your levels for the purpose of his bloodline and only this bloodline.
So for both bloodlines...
Except it doesnt say that. It says:If the arcanist already has a bloodline,taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline.
Now i am taking the wizard and crossblooded sorcerer before i am taking arcanist so, i would already have this crossblooded bloodline. So this would be the leveling up the crossblooded bloodline not just one of the two that makes up my crossblooded bloodline.
Now i am taking the wizard and crossblooded sorcerer before i am taking arcanist so, i would already have this crossblooded bloodline. So this would be the leveling up the crossblooded bloodline not just one of the two that makes up my crossblooded bloodline.
This is the second thread in a week with a fundamental misunderstanding of what Crossblooded is. I wonder if there’s a bad information source on discord or Reddit that has been filtering around.
Crossblooded is not a bloodline. It is an archetype. An archetype that lets you have two different bloodlines.
Crossblooded archetype wrote:
A crossblooded sorcerer selects two different bloodlines.
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A crossblooded sorcerer may select her bonus spells from either of her bloodlines.
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A crossblooded sorcerer combines the bonus feat lists from both of her bloodlines
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A crossblooded sorcerer gains the bloodline arcana of both her bloodlines.
Crossblooded is not a bloodline. But the crossblooded sorcerer still has the bloodline class feature. And the exploit advances that bloodline class feature of the crossblooded sorcerer by the level of the arcanist.
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instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline.
Now i am taking the wizard and crossblooded sorcerer before i am taking arcanist so, i would already have this crossblooded bloodline. So this would be the leveling up the crossblooded bloodline not just one of the two that makes up my crossblooded bloodline.
This is the second thread in a week with a fundamental misunderstanding of what Crossblooded is. I wonder if there’s a bad information source on discord or Reddit that has been filtering around.
Crossblooded is not a bloodline. It is an archetype. An archetype that lets you have two different bloodlines.
Crossblooded archetype wrote:
A crossblooded sorcerer selects two different bloodlines.
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A crossblooded sorcerer may select her bonus spells from either of her bloodlines.
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A crossblooded sorcerer combines the bonus feat lists from both of her bloodlines
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A crossblooded sorcerer gains the bloodline arcana of both her bloodlines.
Etc.
My mistake i phrased my comment slightly wrongly. When i take the arcanist exploit, i already have a level in crossblooded sorcerer. And since i have a level in sorcerer, i have a bloodline. A bloodline granted by being a crossblooded sorcerer.
So, when i take the arcanist exploit bloodline developement, it says if i already have a bloodline, for the purposes of determining the powers and abilities of that bloodline, stack my sorcerer and arcanist levels. I already do have a bloodline, the one from crossblooded sorcerer so i will advance that one.
My mistake i phrased my comment slightly wrongly. When i take the arcanist exploit, i already have a level in crossblooded sorcerer. And since i have a level in sorcerer, i have a bloodline. A bloodline granted by being a crossblooded sorcerer.
So, when i take the arcanist exploit bloodline developement, it says if i already have a bloodline, for the purposes of determining the powers and abilities of that bloodline, stack my sorcerer and arcanist levels. I already do have a bloodline, the one from crossblooded sorcerer so i will advance that one.
You are still phrasing it wrong. You don't have "a bloodline." You have two bloodlines.
Full text of Bloodline Development with emphasis:
The arcanist selects one sorcerer bloodline upon taking this exploit. The arcanist gains that bloodline’s 1st-level bloodline power as though she were a 1st-level sorcerer. The arcanist must select an ordinary bloodline with this ability, not one altered by an archetype. As a swift action, the arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to bolster her latent nature, allowing her to treat her arcanist level as her sorcerer level for the purpose of using this ability, which lasts for a number of rounds equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1).
She does not gain any other abilities when using this exploit in this way, such as bloodline arcana or those bloodline powers gained at 3rd level or higher. If this ability is used to gain an arcane bond and a bonded item is selected, the arcanist can only use that item to cast spells of a level equal to the level of spell that could be cast by her equivalent sorcerer level (limiting her to 1st level spells unless she spends a point from her arcane reservoir).
If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline.
You have to choose one bloodline when taking the Bloodline Development exploit. As long as you are only taking arcanist levels from then on, you only get the powers of that bloodline. You can't choose from both like you could if you were leveling up as a sorcerer with the crossblooded archetype.
If you're dipping sorcerer crossblooded isn't necessarily a bad idea. It gets you both bloodline arcanas - which are often extremely powerful - even though only one of those bloodlines get full powers progression with Bloodline Development.
My mistake i phrased my comment slightly wrongly. When i take the arcanist exploit, i already have a level in crossblooded sorcerer. And since i have a level in sorcerer, i have a bloodline. A bloodline granted by being a crossblooded sorcerer.
So, when i take the arcanist exploit bloodline developement, it says if i already have a bloodline, for the purposes of determining the powers and abilities of that bloodline, stack my sorcerer and arcanist levels. I already do have a bloodline, the one from crossblooded sorcerer so i will advance that one.
You are still phrasing it wrong. You don't have "a bloodline." You have two bloodlines.
** spoiler omitted **...
Yeah bloodline development does say that but it operates under different rules if you already have a bloodline or sorcerer levels.
The arcanist gains that bloodline’s 1st-level bloodline power as though she were a 1st-level sorcerer. The arcanist must select an ordinary bloodline with this ability, not one altered by an archetype. As a swift action, the arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to bolster her latent nature, allowing her to treat her arcanist level as her sorcerer level for the purpose of using this ability, which lasts for a number of rounds equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). She does not gain any other abilities when using this exploit in this way, such as bloodline arcana or those bloodline powers gained at 3rd level or higher. If this ability is used to gain an arcane bond and a bonded item is selected, the arcanist can only use that item to cast spells of a level equal to the level of spell that could be cast by her equivalent sorcerer level (limiting her to 1st level spells unless she spends a point from her arcane reservoir). If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline.
Do you understand what the word instead means? It mean as an alternative or substitute. Since i have a crossblooded sorcerer level that gives me a bloodline, the bloodline development exploit operates under different rules. It advances the bloodline i already have instead of letting me choose one.
You will most likely never get an official answear.
If you ask a question in the forum and a few people are telling you someting doesnt work like you think it schould work and it starts to get into a "A.. no B .. no A... No B" kinda argument there is not a lot to win.
It kinda sounds like you just want people to agree with you so that you can tell your GM or your players: "Look how OP my PC/NPC is and its totally legal, because the thing you will maybe criticize is apporved by the forum."
You could also argue,
1.) that because the arcana says "one bloodline" and the crossblooded sorccerer has 2 bloodlines, that it just doesnt work at all.
2.) that it works for both.
3.) that it works only for the one he has to select.
You can argue for all of that.
The most people here are ageeing, that 3.) is the way it works/should work/is intented to work.
And because there is no official ruling and never will be an neither sidde will be able to (most likely) convince the other side, you have two choices:
1.) You accept that it souldnt work
2.) Ask your GM or tell your players, if/that it works in your home campaign.
You will most likely never get an official answear.
If you ask a question in the forum and a few people are telling you someting doesnt work like you think it schould work and it starts to get into a "A.. no B .. no A... No B" kinda argument there is not a lot to win.
It kinda sounds like you just want people to agree with you so that you can tell your GM or your players: "Look how OP my PC/NPC is and its totally legal, because the thing you will maybe criticize is apporved by the forum."
You could also argue,
1.) that because the arcana says "one bloodline" and the crossblooded sorccerer has 2 bloodlines, that it just doesnt work at all.
2.) that it works for both.
3.) that it works only for the one he has to select.
You can argue for all of that.
The most people here are ageeing, that 3.) is the way it works/should work/is intented to work.
And because there is no official ruling and never will be an neither sidde will be able to (most likely) convince the other side, you have two choices:
1.) You accept that it souldnt work
2.) Ask your GM or tell your players, if/that it works in your home campaign.
Pretty sure if we are judging based on number people its 3 against 2 in my favour. Melkiador and deathless agree with me, deathless seems to have played before and melkiador just thinks its a legal but not that impressive build. Bolafon and you are the only one who seem to think its options 3. You can read the thread again you would find i am right.
Also i the only reason i am still arguing is because neither you nor Bolafon have provided sufficient evidence that i am wrong. You and him argued the same point. Only one bloodline cause the text said one bloodline at the top of the paragraph. You have failed to refute me effectively when i bring up that the bottom of the paragraph says that if the character already has a bloodline it advances that bloodline instead of choosing one bloodline.
If you can disprove that the both part of the paragraph where it says to instead advance the bloodline you already have would mean i cant advance the bloodline i get from crossblooded sorcerer it be great. Then i would accept it but you two just keep pointing to another part of the paragraph that is a ruling for arcanists without a bloodline already.
You do have to take the exploits before you can modify them with the vanara FCB. Which isn’t the worst thing ever but it means you have to take those exploits at the start of your career when you don’t plan on getting the “full” benefit until level 19 and 20. So your first level feat will probably be extra exploit.
Also the vanara racial modifiers aren’t great for arcanist in the first place.
You do have to take the exploits before you can modify them with the vanara FCB. Which isn’t the worst thing ever but it means you have to take those exploits at the start of your career when you don’t plan on getting the “full” benefit until level 19 and 20.
Yeah i will take them at level 3 with extra exploit on my first level of arcanist. "Full"is a bit subjective here but every four levels i gain 1 effective level in each of the two class so by level 7, i should be a level 7 wizard for arcane school and a level 7 sorcerer for bloodline powers. Then slowly my effective levels will outpace my arcanist levels cause of the FCB
I meant that you implied you weren’t dipping wizard and sorcerer until level 19 and 20. Before then, those exploits will be quite a bit more limited.
Or maybe this character is for a one shot that already starts at level 20
Oops sorry about that, i was just listing the full build at level 20, the actual plan from level one would be wizard, crossblooded sorcerer then arcanist with extra exploit. We are starting at a lvl 13(dm said cause its a liberate a conquered country campaign we will start fairly high leveled) and progressing to 20.
Also i the only reason i am still arguing is because neither you nor Bolafon have provided sufficient evidence that i am wrong. You and him argued the same point. Only one bloodline cause the text said one bloodline at the top of the paragraph. You have failed to refute me effectively when i bring up that the bottom of the paragraph says that if the character already has a bloodline it advances that bloodline instead of choosing one bloodline.
To be honest:
I dont really care.
I have a really simple approach, I look at the rules if there is a strict RAW. If there is than I post it, what people than do with this information is their thing not mine.
If there isnt (like now) than I give my interpretation (in this case ONE means ONE and not TWO), and than I stop arguing.
Maybe I will explain something that isnt unterstood correctly, but if you just wanna argue with "A ...no B.. no A ... no B" I´m out.
Its wasted time.
You have no rule that supports your opinion (TWO is ONE because I get TWO for ONE) and I too have no RAW ruling for the way I will handle it (ONE is ONE and not TWO).
Its just two opinions both are not supported by rules directly.
On another recent forum post I read, that if in doubt always chose the less powerful/less loopholey interpretation of the rules and that the desginer team follows that guidline.
You can take that advice, you can ignore it (I know exactly what of the two you will chose, its not hard to guess).
Also i the only reason i am still arguing is because neither you nor Bolafon have provided sufficient evidence that i am wrong. You and him argued the same point. Only one bloodline cause the text said one bloodline at the top of the paragraph. You have failed to refute me effectively when i bring up that the bottom of the paragraph says that if the character already has a bloodline it advances that bloodline instead of choosing one bloodline.
To be honest:
I dont really care.
I have a really simple approach, I look at the rules if there is a strict RAW. If there is than I post it, what people than do with this information is their thing not mine.
If there isnt (like now) than I give my interpretation (in this case ONE means ONE and not TWO), and than I stop arguing.
Maybe I will explain something that isnt unterstood correctly, but if you just wanna argue with "A ...no B.. no A ... no B" I´m out.
Its wasted time.
You have no rule that supports your opinion (TWO is ONE because I get TWO for ONE) and I too have no RAW ruling for the way I will handle it (ONE is ONE and not TWO).
Its just two opinions both are not supported by rules directly.
On another recent forum post I read, that if in doubt always chose the less powerful/less loopholey interpretation of the rules and that the desginer team follows that guidline.
You can take that advice, you can ignore it (I know exactly what of the two you will chose, its not hard to guess).
Fair enough, at least here you are admitting that there is no strict RAW backing up your claim that you can only take one bloodline because the text literally contradicts you in the last sentence. I could continue arguing but unless you keep pushing, i am fine with stopping.
I would like to note that if you search online for say what are some useful arcanist dips, arcanist build recommendation or even what to do with exploits for a exploiter pact wizard, one of the most common suggestions is to dip a level in crossblooded sorcerer and as bloodline development advances both bloodlines. It is a common and well accepted thing you can do, with most of the disputes coming from whether the bloodline advancing this way will give you the bloodline feats or just the bloodline powers and arcana or if you take one bloodline only can you swap the capstone with the alternate capstone ability. This was in fact not the thing that i was worried about regarding RAW legality in this build. I was more about the vanara thing mixing with bloodline development and school understanding. But since thats legal, i would say the case here is mostly closed.
I am more than prepared to side with the internets general ruling which is that you can use bloodline development with the crossblooded bloodline since no replies here really dissuaded me of it.
Yeah, dipping a level of cross blooded sorcerer was brought up almost immediately when the arcanist was first released. It was mostly considered to not be worth the cost, but fine if that’s what you want to do. Slowing your spell progression on a class that’s already a level behind the wizard is really “painful”. It does get slightly better as you reach mid levels, and have enough spells for the average adventuring day, but if doing an AP you’ll find the spells you are assumed to have are always just out of reach for your current dipped level.
If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline.
The RAW is fairly straightforward. How Bloodline Development normally works is irrelevant when used to advance another class's bloodline (as the "instead" word indicates). It simply advances the other class's bloodline as if you'd taken more levels of that class, so if you have a level of CrossbloodedSorcerer as an Arcanist, you continue advancing your bloodline as a Crossblooded Sorcerer would, mixing and matching bloodline powers as normal.
The Vanara favored class bonus would indeed raise the effective Arcanist level you have for the purposes of the Bloodline Development exploit, giving your Arcanist an effective Sorcerer level of 23 at level 20.
Incidentally, a plain Sorcerer at level 20 using a Robe of Arcane Heritage will have an effective Sorcerer level of 24 at level 20.
