Hypothetical Untamed Form Casting Proposal

[Valeclaw]

I understand the present function and intention of Battle Form spells and they they work fairly well for that implementation, and I understand the innate strength you already have just having that at it's highest level as a focus spell (granted, provided you maintain it's power with class feats). But something I really enjoyed when I played a Warpriest was having decent accuracy, but still having access to your spells to provide support, buffs and healing. The question of 'do I use an action to strike' as a Warpriest Cleric felt more flexible than a Wild Druid, where at least in my play experience, it just feels like an emergency for when something 'breaks through' or comes straight at me. An emergency response whereas I do not quite think a Warpriest feels that way.

But hypothetically, say Untamed Druids were allowed to cast spells in their polymorph forms. What limitation would you put on it?

For me, I liked the idea of class feats, if not a class archetype, for selecting specific spells to function for this. Or perhaps cross-synergy between other druid subclasses, like allowing Oaken Resilience to be cast from a slot in an Untamed Order Form if you have the Grown of Oak Leaf druid class feat. Or perhaps a means of casting heal (for those who are always stuck in a group where everybody hates taking healing options in any capacity lmao) without having to spend another focus point and turn mainly just to get back into the form.

And what would you possibly take away from Druid (as if these changes came via a class archetype) to offset granting some of their of their spell access back?

[moosher12]

I was contemplating on whether or not to allow it, but ultimately I decided not to (mostly because my players did not ask for it).

But in my own time I was thinking of how I would do it. I think if there is one reference on past precedent to do it at all, PF1 used to have a feat that allowed spellcasting while in an animal form.

As such, I agree a good start is to make it a class feat. The magic about the limiter is a GM can always choose to make the level prerequisite as high or low as they wish, and such an ability would probably reasonably not feel like a feat tax as it would feel like a genuine expansion, rather than anything the average player would expect to be default.

Another option is to say that if a battle form can perform manipulate actions, it can cast spells as default, which was the home rule I was personally leaning forward (but have frankly let to take the plunge toward allowing). These spells tend to be higher level anyway.

I don't think anything else specifically has to be taken away from a Druid (or any other class that might make use of this). In both of my versions, Druid would probably need a dedicated feat to get spellcasting off of animal battle forms, so the feat biting into your feat allotment would be tradeoff enough.

TLDR: My takes are to either make it a class feat, or only allow it for battle forms that can perform manipulate actions. (Or maybe perhaps allowing it for manipulate-capable battleforms, and letting a class feat unlock access for the other forms).

[YuriP]

Valeclaw wrote:

I understand the present function and intention of Battle Form spells and they they work fairly well for that implementation, and I understand the innate strength you already have just having that at it's highest level as a focus spell (granted, provided you maintain it's power with class feats). But something I really enjoyed when I played a Warpriest was having decent accuracy, but still having access to your spells to provide support, buffs and healing. The question of 'do I use an action to strike' as a Warpriest Cleric felt more flexible than a Wild Druid, where at least in my play experience, it just feels like an emergency for when something 'breaks through' or comes straight at me. An emergency response whereas I do not quite think a Warpriest feels that way.

But hypothetically, say Untamed Druids were allowed to cast spells in their polymorph forms. What limitation would you put on it?

For me, I liked the idea of class feats, if not a class archetype, for selecting specific spells to function for this. Or perhaps cross-synergy between other druid subclasses, like allowing Oaken Resilience to be cast from a slot in an Untamed Order Form if you have the Grown of Oak Leaf druid class feat. Or perhaps a means of casting heal (for those who are always stuck in a group where everybody hates taking healing options in any capacity lmao) without having to spend another focus point and turn mainly just to get back into the form.

And what would you possibly take away from Druid (as if these changes came via a class archetype) to offset granting some of their of their spell access back?

Probably the best homebrew is to use the already tested limitation for casting in Battle Form is limiting to a wave casting (officially called as Bounded Spellcasting in SoM) that's the spellcasting limitation that magus and summoners have. But to this make sense the entire class chassis also was to change to be a martial chassis or it will overpenalize the druid.

Going away from homebrew, currently the solution is take advantage of that you can easily get 3 focus points with a shapeshifter druid and Dismiss the form when you need to cast. It's a way to be able to cast again but it's very action expensive (you already have used 2-actions to enter into the form in the beginning of the encounter, now to be able to cast again you need to use 1-action to Dismiss, cast an emergency spell like a heal, then use other 2-action to cast a Battle Form again).

At level 20 True Shapeshifter allows you use Anthropomorphic Shape to use 2-action to go back to an humanoid form and 2-action to change to a Battle Form again without use extra focus spells but the action economy keeps terrible.

If you want to fight and cast with same character (including some emergencial heals) consider to make a primal/divine/occult Summoner. This allows you to keep a strong frontline while keep spells to cast heal or any other spell that you want. You can combine it with an cha based caster archetype like sorcerer, oracle or psychic to get more spells and spell slots to use for healing or buffing and debuffing while you fight with your eidolon. Another good option is to use an herbalist/alchemist archetype once that Act Together doesn't allow you to use 2 2-actions activity at same time but elixirs action is divided in 2 (1-action to draw, 1-action to activate) making summoner super-effective using them while an eidolon uses a 2-actions activity.

[Valeclaw]

Someone said wrote:

Probably the best homebrew is to use the already tested limitation for casting in Battle Form is limiting to a wave casting (officially called as Bounded Spellcasting in SoM) that's the spellcasting limitation that magus and summoners have. But to this make sense the entire class chassis also was to change to be a martial chassis or it will overpenalize the druid.

As an alternative in free archetype games, what would be the effect of allowing Kineticist Impulses to work in Untamed Form? I often find the battle form itself struggles to really gain anything from Free Archetype like other classes can, and wonder if something similar to the caveat of Elemental Barbarians rule for putting rage onto impulses would drastically skew the power of the class. In my head it would not, as the best options would still be fairly limited and just add a dash more versatility to your form that wouldn't overshadow what you could do outside of it?

Edit: I will also say that Battle Harbinger and Bloodrager could redefine or end up being a good guidelines for stuff like this down the line, which I am very excited about the prospects of.