More request for help than advice...


Advice


OK, first, sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, but I didn't see a forum specific to the mod I have a question about, and thought this would be the best place to post and get a quick answer or three - so, again, sorry if this is the wrong spot, but thanks in advance for any help/direction I can get.

Second, spoilers for Crown of the Kobold King 2e (in case some others haven't played it yet).

I'm running CKK 2e for our group, and currently prepping for Chapter 3, Part 3 (Grave of the Third Seal), and have reached Drazmorg... I'm confused, wondering if I'm missing something?

His INT is +6, and I'm guessing he was an 8th level wizard, based on his spells prepared (3/3/3/3/5), right? If so, he should be an expert caster and his proficiency should be +12 (lvl+4), right? Right?

** EDIT - wait, shouldn't he have 4/4/4/4/6 as a necromancer? Or at least 3/4/4/4/6 as a 7th level necromancer? **

(Aside : why do I have to figure out his spellcasting level, and proficiency bonus myself through reverse engineering things? Why not just list it? Same with DCs for many checks in the mod, but I digress....)

BUT...

His spell attack is listed as +17... not +18? (ability [6] + proficiency [12])?
His spell DC is listed as 25... not 28? (10 + ability [6] + proficiency [12])?

Are there penalties I'm missing or something?

He has Dispel Magic prepped, so I'm also trying to figure out his 'counteract check modifier' - supposed to be proficiency (+12) + ability modifier (+6) + other modifiers (?) = +18, right? But it could be something else, since those other numbers are ... off.

Also, as a vaguely related general question ... if the 1st level kobold witch (in Chapter 2, Part 1) was CR 1, and the 4th level kobold sorcerer (in Chapter 2, Part 2) was CR 4, how is an 8th level necromancer THAT CAN FLY AND HAS WIGHT ABILITIES just CR 8 ?

Thanks again for any help.


I wouldn't assume that NPCs are built using character creation rules with class levels.

That said, there *is* something going on in so far as normally, spell DC = 10 + spell attack modifier. He's got a magic staff ("Drazmorg’s Staff of All-Sight") and his spellbook ("Drazmorg’s Staff of All-Sight") but neither has a relevant modifier, as far as I can tell; and I don't see any mentions of an ongoing effect that might have buffed one or penalized the other.

Given that the DCs of his other abilities (e.g. Drain Life, Raise Bone Wall) are both DC 25, I'd probably just chalk up the discrepancy to a +2 status bonus to spell attack rolls, from the necromatic energy of the Lower Vault of Droskar’s Crucible. So, hrm, if we go this path and assume therefore that he gets a +15 combined spellcasting proficiency/ability modifier with his one level 4 Dispel Magic to disepl some magic spell... well, he'd use +15 for his counteract check.

As for his creature level, bear mind that some his stats are fairly low for a level 8 creature. In particular, his AC is low for a Creature 8, and his HP are on the low side; same for his fortitude save.


Conscious Meat wrote:
I wouldn't assume that NPCs are built using character creation rules with class levels.

Seconded. Enemy creatures aren't built bottom-up by picking abilities and calculating modifiers as a result. They are built top-down - the role of the enemy is picked, then the description and abilities, and finally the numbers are just pulled from value tables based on the creature level and their role.

Conscious Meat wrote:
That said, there *is* something going on in so far as normally, spell DC = 10 + spell attack modifier.

Surprisingly, Enemy Spell DC and Spell Attack Bonus is the (so far) one and only place that I have seen a DC that doesn't match 10 + bonus. That is just what was chosen for those numbers on the table, and I have no explanation for why.

Sovereign Court

bigwave wrote:
He has Dispel Magic prepped, so I'm also trying to figure out his 'counteract check modifier' - supposed to be proficiency (+12) + ability modifier (+6) + other modifiers (?) = +18, right? But it could be something else, since those other numbers are ... off.

Like the others have said, NPCs aren't built with PC rules. Their numbers aren't calculated by adding up proficiencies and ability scores. Instead, you just look at the table for what the numbers should be for a creature of that level, and write them into the statblock.

But to answer this question: just use his spell attack modifier.


OK, guess that all makes sense (sort of). I'd rather it was more logical, less arbitrary, but I guess I've just got to roll with it. (No pun intended. )

Thanks

Sovereign Court

bigwave wrote:

OK, guess that all makes sense (sort of). I'd rather it was more logical, less arbitrary, but I guess I've just got to roll with it. (No pun intended. )

Thanks

It looked weird to me too, the first time I ran into it. But there is a logic to it and it's actually less arbitrary.

See, the main goal of monster statblocks is to be opposition to the players. So the really important bit is what on the outside: the stats that the players can interact with.

Another important part is that as a GM, you can easily select monsters from a book to throw against your party. For that to be easy, you have to be sure that if it says "level 6", it's really gonna be about as powerful as a level 6 monster should be. You don't want a level 8 monster cosplaying as level 6 - if you wanted to challenge the party with a tougher monster, you could just go look at the higher level monsters. The level of a monster should be an honest number.

So that's why the current approach is actually very logical and non-arbitrary: you go directly to the number that you need.

In first edition, sometimes when you're reading an adventure you get the feeling the writer was powergaming the monster against the players. "There's six PCs of level 3 or so, so I can use a level 5 monster (plus some mooks). Okay, I'll take this level 1 ghoul, make it a ghast instead (+2 to all numbers, counts as +1 level), give it four rogue levels but I'll say they're not perfectly matching classes, so they only count for half. And because it's a monster that gained class levels it gains an elite (advanced) template for free." Very very clever - you built a monster from the ground up using rules. But this so-called level 5 monster has stats that more closely resemble the guidelines for the stats a level 7 monster should have.

You don't do that kind of shenanigans in second edition. You work from the level you want, directly to the numbers that make sense for that level.

(It also saves a massive amount of work when you start doing monsters around level 10 and up.)

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