Tough to kill says “ if you already have the Die Hard feat you can retrain it when you get Tough to Kill.”
Hold-Scarred Orc says: You also gain the Diehard feat.
How does one retrain out of a feat gifted by a Heritage?
(Tough to kill also has a slight tweak that says “The first time each day you’d be reduced to dying 3 or higher, you stay at dying 2 instead.” but I don’t see that as being pertinent to my question.)
Simply get another General Feat.
You could ignore it and just keep the now superseded Heritage-gained feat. It's a very niche situation. Or, as Yuri said, simply retrain it into a General Feat that you could have gotten at Level 1.
I think that's the easiest reasonable GM ruling. I certainly wouldn't want to discourage hold-scarred orcs from taking Tough To Kill.
...but we'd want to actual rules text to reflect that, no?
Of course, if you change Tough to Kill to instead say Tough “ if you already have the Die Hard feat you can take a different level 1 General feat when you get Tough to Kill.” then we're immediately going ot start seeing shenanigans where people take diehard, take Tough to kill, use the fact that they have Diehard to justify takign some other general feat instead, and then retrain their existing Diehard feat. So that's a thing.
Can anyone suggest reasonably brief wording that would avoid both of those two failure states?
I think that's the easiest reasonable GM ruling. I certainly wouldn't want to discourage hold-scarred orcs from taking Tough To Kill.
...but we'd want to actual rules text to reflect that, no?
Of course, if you change Tough to Kill to instead say Tough “ if you already have the Die Hard feat you can take a different level 1 General feat when you get Tough to Kill.” then we're immediately going ot start seeing shenanigans where people take diehard, take Tough to kill, use the fact that they have Diehard to justify takign some other general feat instead, and then retrain their existing Diehard feat. So that's a thing.
Can anyone suggest reasonably brief wording that would avoid both of those two failure states?
Well the issue is that you don’t “choose” Tough to Kill. It’s a class feature.
How does one retrain out of a feat gifted by a Heritage?
Per the retraining rules
"Remove the old feat and replace it with another of the same type."Doesn't say anything about where the feat came from. And specific "retrain the feat" beats general rules.
So, rules as written, you can just pick another feat of the same type.
Simply get another General Feat.
You could ignore it and just keep the now superseded Heritage-gained feat. It's a very niche situation. Or, as Yuri said, simply retrain it into a General Feat that you could have gotten at Level 1.
Sure. And it is “niche”. I guess my problems are twofold: a) that isn’t fulfilling in terms of an “official stance” and b) General feats are by and large not very good.
But you folx have offered a decision that is most likely to be made at any given table.
This is where I find the lack of desire to close holes in the system annoying. And the reasons are always similar. Page count. Word count. Person hours.
How does one retrain out of a feat gifted by a Heritage?Per the retraining rules
"Remove the old feat and replace it with another of the same type."Doesn't say anything about where the feat came from. And specific "retrain the feat" beats general rules.
So, rules as written, you can just pick another feat of the same type.
That works. If you can retrain Heritage feats.
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Can anyone suggest reasonably brief wording that would avoid both of those two failure states?
if you already have Die Hard then gain another General Feat.
Same effect, more direct.
Can anyone suggest reasonably brief wording that would avoid both of those two failure states?if you already have Die Hard then gain another General Feat.
Same effect, more direct.
That's the one that leads to the weird technicality I was talking about.
- Be a Versatile Human Guardian.
- You can do your initial chargen in any order, so take your heritage-derived General feat (as Diehard) before your class.
- You can now take any lvl 1 General feat for Tough To Kill
- Retrain your heritage feat to something else.
Ideally, we'd want wording that would prevent both the failstate and the exploit.
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Can anyone suggest reasonably brief wording that would avoid both of those two failure states?if you already have Die Hard then gain another General Feat.
Same effect, more direct.
That's the one that leads to the weird technicality I was talking about.
- Be a Versatile Human Guardian.
- You can do your initial chargen in any order, so take your heritage-derived General feat (as Diehard) before your class.
- You can now take any lvl 1 General feat for Tough To Kill
- Retrain your heritage feat to something else.Ideally, we'd want wording that would prevent both the failstate and the exploit.
I agree it's awkward.
But I'm not sure I would call it an exploit.Do you think having a general feat would be too strong?
Simply get another General Feat.You could ignore it and just keep the now superseded Heritage-gained feat. It's a very niche situation. Or, as Yuri said, simply retrain it into a General Feat that you could have gotten at Level 1.Sure. And it is “niche”. I guess my problems are twofold: a) that isn’t fulfilling in terms of an “official stance”...
You are not wrong in complain about it and here is the right place at right time to do but honestly the system is already in a size that somethings will colide.
Paizo already implemented the concept of retraining and the designers tries to use already existent rules when they design something too close to them in their classes to allow you make such changes. But even with this somethings the rules can colide in a deadend, specially when they are specific option like a specific class feature and a specific heritage.
I hope that in the final version of the class the give an official fix to this conflit of the rules but currently due how well the game is balance we already have a homebrew fix that is "once we have a general feat that was give by a class feature that colides with the same general feat that was give from an heritage and you want to use both due how well the game currently is balanced the best solution is just take another general (or skill feat with general trait) of same level and everything would work perfectly".
It's a solution to allow your playtest that we know that won't break the experience and the playtest results so can just do it.
About the problem itself just put a post into the Guardian Class Feedback thread and in the notes of the survey and the designers will see it for final version of the class.
That's why put simply "Simply get another General Feat" because this would allow you to playtest without been penalized due your choice.
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It's the same as skills.
If you get Athletics twice, you can pick another.
That works. If you can retrain Heritage feats.How does one retrain out of a feat gifted by a Heritage?Per the retraining rules
"Remove the old feat and replace it with another of the same type."Doesn't say anything about where the feat came from. And specific "retrain the feat" beats general rules.
So, rules as written, you can just pick another feat of the same type.
You can retrain heritage feat if they are not physiological. Including some feats like Tusks that even being a physiological feat gives a special solution to retrain it.
The problem is that the currently Retraining Rules from Players Core and GM core are widely open. They don't give us specific rules about how much time is needed to retrain many things including heritages but gives examples to GMs to use as basis.
But usually each table creates its own retraining rules. Due many adventures including some APs doesn't gives enough downtime for retraining this rules rarely is followed by RAW. Instead we usually uses common sense.
As the Hold-Scarred Orc is a heritage that changes you physiologically usually you can retrain it simply leveling up. Maybe you GM could give a magical solution as Extreme Retraining but normally you cannot retrain it.
Simply get another General Feat.You could ignore it and just keep the now superseded Heritage-gained feat. It's a very niche situation. Or, as Yuri said, simply retrain it into a General Feat that you could have gotten at Level 1.Sure. And it is “niche”. I guess my problems are twofold: a) that isn’t fulfilling in terms of an “official stance”...You are not wrong in complain about it and here is the right place at right time to do but honestly the system is already in a size that somethings will colide.
Paizo already implemented the concept of retraining and the designers tries to use already existent rules when they design something too close to them in their classes to allow you make such changes. But even with this somethings the rules can colide in a deadend, specially when they are specific option like a specific class feature and a specific heritage.
I hope that in the final version of the class the give an official fix to this conflit of the rules but currently due how well the game is balance we already have a homebrew fix that is "once we have a general feat that was give by a class feature that colides with the same general feat that was give from an heritage and you want to use both due how well the game currently is balanced the best solution is just take another general (or skill feat with general trait) of same level and everything would work perfectly".
It's a solution to allow your playtest that we know that won't break the experience and the playtest results so can just do it..
Thx for the thoughts Yuri P. And I completely understand the point about scale and conflicts within large rulesets. Stuff will happen. So Mellored’s reminder that specific trumps general basically covers it. I guess I just like to have things that are easily hammered out…hammered out.
That works. If you can retrain Heritage feats.How does one retrain out of a feat gifted by a Heritage?Per the retraining rules
"Remove the old feat and replace it with another of the same type."Doesn't say anything about where the feat came from. And specific "retrain the feat" beats general rules.
So, rules as written, you can just pick another feat of the same type.
You can retrain heritage feat if they are not physiological. Including some feats like Tusks that even being a physiological feat gives an special solution to retrain it.
The problem is that the currently Retraining Rules from Players Core and GM core are widely open. They don't give us specific rules about how much time is needed to retrain many things including heritages but gives examples to GMs to use as basis.
But usually each table creates its own retraining rules. Due many adventures including some APs doesn't gives enough downtime for retraining this rules rarely is followed by RAW. Instead we usually uses common sense.
As the Hold-Scarred Orc is a heritage that changes you physiologically usually you can retrain it simply leveling up. Maybe you GM could give an magical solution as Extreme Retraining but normally you cannot retrain it.
Ah. Now I’m back to square one. Yay! (Thanks for the rulings YuriP.)
This is one of several instances of the rules for the guardian's mechanics being ambiguously written. The better wording would likely have been to simply let you pick another general feat if you already had Diehard when you gain tough to kill. I picked a Hold-Scarred Orc for my playtests on the grounds that they'd be the most appropriate pairing for a guardian, and I suspect I'm not the only one either, so I anticipate this problem coming up much more often if the feature stays written as-is.