Forced movement can only force a creature into dangerous places if it pushes or pulls the target, and Mark Seifter's stated intent seems to be that pushing or pulling is only directly away from or towards the source of the effect. So what if I use an effect that lets me choose other directions but I only choose towards or away? For instance, look at monster Pull, which Monster Core now defines.
Pull [one-action] Requirements The monster’s last action was a success with a Strike that lists Pull in its damage entry; Effect The monster attempts to Reposition the creature, moving it closer to the monster. This attempt neither applies nor counts toward the monster’s multiple attack penalty. If Pull lists a distance, change the distance the creature is pulled on a success to that distance.
From what I understand, Reposition can't normally throw someone off a ledge, but if I have a reach of 10 feet and Reposition an enemy closer to me, could I pull them into hazardous terrain?
Likewise, if I were Flying above an enemy, could I use Acid Grip to lift them up into the air and drop them?
I don't know what to make of an ability that mixes up Pull language (which says yes you can put them in hazardous spots) with the reposition manuever, which can't.
Acid Grip is more clearly no. Itdoesn't say it pushes or pulls. It "moves." You need a spell that says it "pushes" as part of movement to be clearly eligible.
From PC1 see: Blessed Boundary, Elemental Form (water melee has a push effect), Gust of Wind, Pummeling Rubble, Wall of Wind. Focus spells in PC1: Pushing Gust (at level 1, on a success save, this is pretty unique and easy to pull off), Hurtling Stone (again, on a success hit you get a push). There's other pushing effects in premaster books. The rank 5 or 6 force blast that emanates from the caster comes to mind, as does amped Telekinetic Blast via psychic.
I was surprised to find that Hydraulic Push is not a push. A target is instead "knocked back" 5 or 10 feet. Maybe your GM will rule otherwise.
Acid Grip (a rank 2 spell) isn't RAI going to be more powerful than Flinging Updraft (a level 6 feat).
Since Flinging Updraft doesn't cause falling damage, neither will Acid Grip.
I don't know what to make of an ability that mixes up Pull language (which says yes you can put them in hazardous spots) with the reposition manuever, which can't.
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I was surprised to find that Hydraulic Push is not a push. A target is instead "knocked back" 5 or 10 feet. Maybe your GM will rule otherwise.
These sound less like oversights in the rules and more like we aren't supposed to be looking for the words "push" and "pull."
I can't make you able to understand, I can only tell you how it is.
Acid Grip (a rank 2 spell) isn't RAI going to be more powerful than Flinging Updraft (a level 6 feat).
Since Flinging Updraft doesn't cause falling damage, neither will Acid Grip.
Acid Grip is purely offensive. Flinging Updraft seems to go well beyond that. I'm not sure comparing the two makes much sense.
But yes, allowing Acid Grip to deal fall damage on top of acid damage, persistent damage, Speed penalties, and forced movement is probably too much.
These sound less like oversights in the rules and more like we aren't supposed to be looking for the words "push" and "pull."
That is my understanding, yes.
Do we at least agree that a monster using the Pull action to pull a creature counts as pulling?
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Meaning forced movement that is capable of moving the target into a dangerous location - I would likely run it that way in my games, yes.
When I first saw the Reposition action, one of my first thoughts was of dangling from a ledge while the BBEG stands over me gloating, then I yank his leg and pull him off the cliff.
1e Reposition disallowed, putting the target in danger, though.
I can't make you able to understand, I can only tell you how it is.It's not how it is. It's how you interpret it. I'm almost sure designers never intended for this hunting for 'pushes' and 'pulls' and just meant simple physical contact movement of things in contrast with every other weird movement, magical mostly. You invented this in the game which either puts actual key words in traits or abilities' names or doesn't use them.
Not hunting for pushes and pulls makes life easier and doesn't frustrate players. Maybe there are a couple of exceptions like that throwing things in the air for fall damage, but that's probably the only problematic point which is trivially fixed.
Well, not hunting for "push" and "pull" exclusively. If an effect uses one of those words to describe the forced movement, it should count as able to move the target into danger. Any player reading the forced movement rules and that effect would conclude that an effect that claims to push/pull a target is pushing/pulling the target. We just need to sort out what else qualifies.
I can't make you able to understand, I can only tell you how it is.It's not how it is. It's how you interpret it. I'm almost sure designers never intended for this hunting for 'pushes' and 'pulls'
Yes, you are similarly limited. I'm sorry.
Yes, you are similarly limited. I'm sorry.I can't make you able to understand, I can only tell you how it is.It's not how it is. It's how you interpret it. I'm almost sure designers never intended for this hunting for 'pushes' and 'pulls'
Limited how?
So for it to be pushing/pulling, does it just have to reasonably be called pushing/pulling? I can't imagine that muscling a creature around me doesn't involve pushing/pulling.
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It has to actually be called pushing (or push) or pulling. There's plenty of examples where they put "push" into the movement description. Those qualify. If it's other movement without using "push" or "pushing", it doesn't qualify, you can't use it to put a target into danger.
See Call the Hurricane.
A creature that fails its save is battered by the waves and pushed 10 feet (or 20 feet on a critical failure).
This qualifies. It can push people off ledges into falls, it can push people into dangerous terrain.
It has to actually be called pushing (or push) or pulling. There's plenty of examples where they put "push" into the movement description. Those qualify. If it's other movement without using "push" or "pushing", it doesn't qualify, you can't use it to put a target into danger.
See Call the Hurricane.
A creature that fails its save is battered by the waves and pushed 10 feet (or 20 feet on a critical failure).This qualifies. It can push people off ledges into falls, it can push people into dangerous terrain.
Except the rules don't say to look for those exact words, and relying exclusively on the effects that have those words is too restrictive, as demonstrated by Hydraulic Push and the subordinate Reposition in Pull.
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Except the rules don't say to look for those exact words
I mean you say that, but the rule in question specifically uses the words 'push' and 'pull' as distinct and different from other movement options. That has to mean something, and "all these words are synonyms" clearly can't be it otherwise there wouldn't be a distinction in the first place.
Except the rules don't say to look for those exact words, and relying exclusively on the effects that have those words is too restrictive, as demonstrated by Hydraulic Push and the subordinate Reposition in Pull.It has to actually be called pushing (or push) or pulling. There's plenty of examples where they put "push" into the movement description. Those qualify. If it's other movement without using "push" or "pushing", it doesn't qualify, you can't use it to put a target into danger.
See Call the Hurricane.
A creature that fails its save is battered by the waves and pushed 10 feet (or 20 feet on a critical failure).This qualifies. It can push people off ledges into falls, it can push people into dangerous terrain.
The rules assume a certain level of reading comprehension and analytical ability that a certain percentage of the player base simply doesn't have. I do what I can to help them, but some can't get it even with assistance. You may be one of them, and that's unfortunate.
It has to actually say it's a push or a pull (ignoring for now how very rare pulls are in the system). A substantial minority of movement abilities specify that they "push" or are "pushing" when the targets are moved. Those are the ones that qualify. I have provided you many examples in this thread to reference. The others that lack such language do not qualify.
This is the case whether you're able to make yourself understand it or believe it.
You may find a GM who will rule otherwise, or decide Paizo made an editing mistake on something like Hydraulic Push where the name of the ability itself is enough.
Except the rules don't say to look for those exact wordsI mean you say that, but the rule in question specifically uses the words 'push' and 'pull' as distinct and different from other movement options. That has to mean something, and "all these words are synonyms" clearly can't be it otherwise there wouldn't be a distinction in the first place.
Hm, yeah, it should mean something. Supposedly, "push" and "pull" were supposed to be actual defined game terms like in 4e, but they're not defined in PF2e, which typically means we need to rely on the English definitions.
push
verb
1. exert force on (someone or something) in order to move them away from oneself.
2. hold and exert force on (something) so as to cause it to move in front of one.
3. move one's body or a part of it into a specified position with effort.pull
verb
1. exert force on (someone or something) so as to cause movement towards oneself.
2. (of an animal or vehicle) be attached to the front and be the source of forward movement of (a vehicle).
3. (of an engine) exert propulsive force; deliver power.
The rules assume a certain level of reading comprehension and analytical ability that a certain percentage of the player base simply doesn't have. I do what I can to help them, but some can't get it even with assistance. You may be one of them, and that's unfortunate.
Reading comprehension means comprehending what you are reading.
Imagine a troll using the power of its muscles to move a creature closer than it was before. That sentence doesn't call it pulling, but it can be comprehended to mean pulling because that's what pulling is. Exerting force to move something closer.
Likewise, if a creature leaps into an area, it can be surmised that the creature entered the area because that's what happened. The Leap action doesn't need to say "You leap 10 feet, entering each square in your path."
I agree that since push and pull aren't traits or otherwise defined game terms, hunting for those words in the ability text is not something that is actually intended, or even good for the game.
The way I rule at my table is case by case, based on the kind of effect: if it's a forceful, abrupt effect that sends you in a specific direction, it can also throw you off a cliff or into dangerous terrain; if it's something that just leads you around instead, typically along a non-linear path (lie Reposition or Leading Dance, for example), then you have the means to avoid the most dangerous spots.
I mean you say that, but the rule in question specifically uses the words 'push' and 'pull' as distinct and different from other movement options. That has to mean something...You should know that there are dozens of cases for this game when it's not true at all. And when thinking about it too much leads to absurd rulings and frustration.
Like in this case.
Seriously, do you really think that there's any difference between Reposition and Shove for this case? That's why I call this absurd.
Which case are you talking about?
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Seriously, do you really think that there's any difference between Reposition and Shove for this case?
Of course there's a difference. Shove is a push (which has to go away from you, requiring positioning ahead of time to set it up), Reposition is not (which grants more flexibility in where you can move them, potentially setting up a flank or removing one or whatever with precisions planning).
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Seriously, do you really think that there's any difference between Reposition and Shove for this case? That's why I call this absurd.
I can't parse a meaningful for the rules to go out of their way to establish a distinction otherwise. So yes. Absolutely.
Actually 'yes' isn't even strong enough of an answer. Not only is there a difference, but these two abilities are literally the archetypal examples of the different types of forced movement that the rules go out of their way to define in the first place. The forced movement rules even use the word reposition to describe the more limited type of forced movement.
There's no worse pair of abilities to bring up to try to make the other point.
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The forced movement rules even use the word reposition to describe the more limited type of forced movement.
To be specific, that forced movement rule uses the phrase "reposition you in some other way [than pushing or pulling]." And crucially, this reposition is lowercase, so it's not referring to the Reposition action. Rather, it's referring to any forced movement that changes your position without pushing or pulling you. It doesn't mention whether or not Reposition is such an ability. In fact, this rule predates the Reposition action.
I don't know what case Errenor is talking about, though. A case in which Shove and Reposition are no different in what way?
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You are still hung up on using 'push' and 'pull' as keywords that can determine objectively whether an ability can cause forced movement into dangerous terrain?
Why not just use the last sentence of that paragraph?
In all cases, the GM makes the final call if there’s doubt on where forced movement can move a creature.
Is there something wrong with that bit of rules text?
The only issue with that rules text is that it's not very helpful if the person asking is the GM. We know the GM can decide however they want, but how they should decide is not obvious. Some GMs might use a common sense understanding of pushing and pulling. Others might decide based on what seems the most balanced. The sentence is trying to tell the GM, "Hey, you are in charge! Rule it however you want!" But it's a difficult decision because whatever interpretation a GM uses here can determine whether or not a creature straight up dies (depending on the severity of the hazard).
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1e Reposition disallowed, putting the target in danger, though.
Though there was a feat that allowed you to do so.
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Let's see the paragraph as a whole instead of fragments of a sentence.
Usually the creature or effect forcing the movement
chooses the path the victim takes. If you’re pushed or
pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous
terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like. Abilities that
reposition you in some other way can’t put you in such
dangerous places unless they specify otherwise. In all
cases, the GM makes the final call if there’s doubt on
where forced movement can move a creature.
Push and pull don't have a keyword definition for this, so we should treat them as plain English. A synonym for push or pull should still count. We're looking at whether the effect could reasonably be considered pushing or pulling, not only if it literally uses those words.
A good example of something that's NOT pushing or pulling would be Leading Dance. It's literally forced movement (as per the critical success condition) but the foe is making the steps in tandem with you. This would be a clear case of an effect where you couldn't dance someone off the ledge.
"Muscling" someone around is a lot more into GM decision territory. It could be a synonym for pushing and/or pulling someone. The GM clearly has the final call on that. Since you're physically forcing someone's movements, I'd lean towards allowing it.
So stuff like explosions, strong wind, and gravity distortion would count, but not teleportation and dance choreography.
As a side note, I've tried using Acid Grip in PFS to pull a target into the air for the fall damage, but it's never worked because:
A) the target saves, and 5 ft upward isn't great enough to cause damage.
B) the ceiling is 10 feet high.
The only enemies I really want to use Acid Grip on are the single opponents I really want to hinder, and those enemies are of higher level, so of course it never worked. I pushed one mook into a river, but that was it. I stopped preparing the spell not when I learned about the restrictions of force movement, but instead when I saw I wasn't getting the results I wanted even without that rule.
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I'm dubious about whether moving enemies up into the air with Acid Grip is RAI. Because if you can lift someone 10 feet they'd also drop prone. Which feels like a good enough side effect that the spell should say it directly, rather than leaving it as a secret trick to find out.
I think it's possible the writer just meant in any horizontal direction but didn't realize they needed to be more precise.
I'm intrigued by the spell because it seems like at higher levels, this would essentially be a cheap utility effect. For when you need to move someone around a bit (into a flank, off a ledge, whatever) but it doesn't require your top rank spell slot. If moving them even 5 feet would be enough, it's quite reliable.
Also it's pretty reliable for stopping troll regeneration at least 1 round. I'd definitely consider packing at least a scroll of it.
Moving upwards should count as difficult terrain, which makes me think... does difficult terrain matter with forced movement?
I'm dubious about whether moving enemies up into the air with Acid Grip is RAI. Because if you can lift someone 10 feet they'd also drop prone. Which feels like a good enough side effect that the spell should say it directly, rather than leaving it as a secret trick to find out.
I think it's possible the writer just meant in any horizontal direction but didn't realize they needed to be more precise.
I'm intrigued by the spell because it seems like at higher levels, this would essentially be a cheap utility effect. For when you need to move someone around a bit (into a flank, off a ledge, whatever) but it doesn't require your top rank spell slot. If moving them even 5 feet would be enough, it's quite reliable.
Also it's pretty reliable for stopping troll regeneration at least 1 round. I'd definitely consider packing at least a scroll of it.
I agree with all of that. Acid Grip already does a lot. Additionally, it shouldn't be much stronger than Acid Arrow, the legacy spell it replaces.
Moving upwards should count as difficult terrain, which makes me think... does difficult terrain matter with forced movement?
Flying upwards is difficult terrain. Swimming up or down is also implied to be difficult terrain for some reason. Moving upwards at all isn't difficult terrain, and I don't think difficult terrain affects forced movement in the first place.