I noticed that dazzling display has a different immunity timer than the standard demoralize timer. I'm now wondering if immunity to demoralize is specific to the demoralize action or general to include the demoralize sub action with activities like dazzling display or reach for the sky. Why have a shorter timer when targets would be immune for longer normally? Thoughts?
Braggart Swashbucklers can end Demoralize Immunity early starting at level 9, it's a pivotal part of their Style. It will not, however, remove immunity to Dazzling Display.
I would say they are separate timers, and in most cases the enemies would still be immune for 10 minutes. If you can remove or reduce it, as mentioned above, you wouldn't be able to use Dazzling Display on the same enemies for at least 1 minute.
Probably because Firebrands has been written hastily and has several options that are questionable.
But as far as RAW is concerned, all options that Demoralise will be inflicting the regular immunity of Demoralise EXCEPT when specific wording in the ability itself alters that.
So, dazzling display will indeed give 1 minute immunity instead of 10 minutes, because it specifically alters the immunity duration, but all other options that do not mention anything about the immunity will be under the same 10min duration of the base Demoralise.
Powers128 wrote: I noticed that dazzling display has a different immunity timer than the standard demoralize timer. I'm now wondering if immunity to demoralize is specific to the demoralize action or general to include the demoralize sub action with activities like dazzling display or reach for the sky. Why have a shorter timer when targets would be immune for longer normally? Thoughts? Both those things are their own actions/activities. Immunities are also to those specific activities. Everything is correct it seems. Demoralize doesn't come into this. They even both don't say this: they say 'Intimidation checks'. 'To Demoralize', yes. Which means you use its effects, that's all.
BTW this also means that all bonuses specifically to 'Demoralize' action (not all Intimidation checks) won't work.
Errenor wrote: Powers128 wrote: I noticed that dazzling display has a different immunity timer than the standard demoralize timer. I'm now wondering if immunity to demoralize is specific to the demoralize action or general to include the demoralize sub action with activities like dazzling display or reach for the sky. Why have a shorter timer when targets would be immune for longer normally? Thoughts? Both those things are their own actions/activities. Immunities are also to those specific activities. Everything is correct it seems. Demoralize doesn't come into this. They even both don't say this: they say 'Intimidation checks'. 'To Demoralize', yes. Which means you use its effects, that's all.
BTW this also means that all bonuses specifically to 'Demoralize' action (not all Intimidation checks) won't work. Dazzling Display specifically calls out that it is Demoralise action.
Similar to how you get the bonuses to your Strikes when you do an ability that has Strike as subordinate, you get your bonuses to Demoralise when you do Dazzling.
shroudb wrote: Errenor wrote: Powers128 wrote: I noticed that dazzling display has a different immunity timer than the standard demoralize timer. I'm now wondering if immunity to demoralize is specific to the demoralize action or general to include the demoralize sub action with activities like dazzling display or reach for the sky. Why have a shorter timer when targets would be immune for longer normally? Thoughts? Both those things are their own actions/activities. Immunities are also to those specific activities. Everything is correct it seems. Demoralize doesn't come into this. They even both don't say this: they say 'Intimidation checks'. 'To Demoralize', yes. Which means you use its effects, that's all.
BTW this also means that all bonuses specifically to 'Demoralize' action (not all Intimidation checks) won't work. Dazzling Display specifically calls out that it is Demoralise action.
Similar to how you get the bonuses to your Strikes when you do an ability that has Strike as subordinate, you get your bonuses to Demoralise when you do Dazzling.
"attempt a single Intimidation check to Demoralize" "Attempt Intimidation checks to Demoralize"
No, I believe it doesn't.
It would if it were "make one Demoralize action using results for each enemy" or even simply "Demoralize each enemy".
It's not a subordinate Demoralize in short. Strike activities say 'make a Strike'.
shroudb wrote: Probably because Firebrands has been written hastily and has several options that are questionable.
But as far as RAW is concerned, all options that Demoralise will be inflicting the regular immunity of Demoralise EXCEPT when specific wording in the ability itself alters that.
So, dazzling display will indeed give 1 minute immunity instead of 10 minutes, because it specifically alters the immunity duration, but all other options that do not mention anything about the immunity will be under the same 10min duration of the base Demoralise.
I considered if it's just a poorly thought out feat, but reach for the sky also has a one minute timer so it would have to be the same mistake.
Errenor wrote: shroudb wrote: Errenor wrote: Powers128 wrote: I noticed that dazzling display has a different immunity timer than the standard demoralize timer. I'm now wondering if immunity to demoralize is specific to the demoralize action or general to include the demoralize sub action with activities like dazzling display or reach for the sky. Why have a shorter timer when targets would be immune for longer normally? Thoughts? Both those things are their own actions/activities. Immunities are also to those specific activities. Everything is correct it seems. Demoralize doesn't come into this. They even both don't say this: they say 'Intimidation checks'. 'To Demoralize', yes. Which means you use its effects, that's all.
BTW this also means that all bonuses specifically to 'Demoralize' action (not all Intimidation checks) won't work. Dazzling Display specifically calls out that it is Demoralise action.
Similar to how you get the bonuses to your Strikes when you do an ability that has Strike as subordinate, you get your bonuses to Demoralise when you do Dazzling.
"attempt a single Intimidation check to Demoralize" "Attempt Intimidation checks to Demoralize"
No, I believe it doesn't.
It would if it were "make one Demoralize action using results for each enemy" or even simply "Demoralize each enemy".
It's not a subordinate Demoralize in short. Strike activities say 'make a Strike'. I'm with shroud on this one. Demoralize is capitalized so there's no reason to assume it shouldn't function as a straight forward subordinate action
Braggarts seem to be the most relevant case for the purpose of the independent timer. I'd wager that's why it's there. That just leaves reach for the sky as a bit weird.
I guess a braggart could also hypothetically take reach for the sky lol.
Errenor wrote: shroudb wrote: Errenor wrote: Powers128 wrote: I noticed that dazzling display has a different immunity timer than the standard demoralize timer. I'm now wondering if immunity to demoralize is specific to the demoralize action or general to include the demoralize sub action with activities like dazzling display or reach for the sky. Why have a shorter timer when targets would be immune for longer normally? Thoughts? Both those things are their own actions/activities. Immunities are also to those specific activities. Everything is correct it seems. Demoralize doesn't come into this. They even both don't say this: they say 'Intimidation checks'. 'To Demoralize', yes. Which means you use its effects, that's all.
BTW this also means that all bonuses specifically to 'Demoralize' action (not all Intimidation checks) won't work. Dazzling Display specifically calls out that it is Demoralise action.
Similar to how you get the bonuses to your Strikes when you do an ability that has Strike as subordinate, you get your bonuses to Demoralise when you do Dazzling.
"attempt a single Intimidation check to Demoralize" "Attempt Intimidation checks to Demoralize"
No, I believe it doesn't.
It would if it were "make one Demoralize action using results for each enemy" or even simply "Demoralize each enemy".
It's not a subordinate Demoralize in short. Strike activities say 'make a Strike'. It clearly states, as you pointed out "make a check to Demoralise"
it doesn't say something akin "make an intimidation check and apply the effects of a demoralise" like actions that only apply the effects, like battle medicine do.
it clearly states that it is, in fact, a Demoralise through and through.
If a feat said "make a ranged attack to Strike" you wouldn't apply the Strike effects? Because that's word for word what it says but for demoralise.
If the action uses Demoralize as a subordinate action, then it clearly has the same restrictions on timeout.
If the action says that you make a check to Demoralize, then it will likely be ruled to be the same since the Demoralize action also uses that language.
There are some things that don't do either of those. Scare to Death for example. Those I believe would be on their own separate lockout timing.
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Finoan wrote: If the action uses Demoralize as a subordinate action, then it clearly has the same restrictions on timeout.
If the action says that you make a check to Demoralize, then it will likely be ruled to be the same since the Demoralize action also uses that language.
There are some things that don't do either of those. Scare to Death for example. Those I believe would be on their own separate lockout timing.
That's what I'm saying.
Dazzling display:
Quote: You perform a bewildering show of prowess, such as by whirling and flashing a weapon, that unnerves foes. Attempt Intimidation checks to Demoralize each enemy within 30 feet. If your last action was a critical hit against an enemy or reduced an enemy to 0 Hit Points, you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your Intimidation checks. Regardless of the results of your checks, each creature is then temporarily immune to Dazzling Display for 1 minute. It simply an AoE Demoralize.
In fact, as written (checks and not check) RaW you roll seperately against each enemy (which is just a lot of rolls for no reason imo, I can easily see this part being houseruled to use a single check vs everyone in most tables)
It will lock you out of demoralizing the targets further for 10minutes.
Last sentence though says
Quote: Regardless of the results of your checks, each creature is then temporarily immune to Dazzling Display for 1 minute. It doesn't alter the Demoralize immunity. It gives a different, 1minute immunity, against the specific action of Dazzling display.
Which as pointed above it is important for Braggards, since they can remove the Demoralize immunity, but not the Dazzling Display immunity.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
An affected creature becomes immune to 2 things:
1. YOUR Demoralize.
2. Dazzling Display (without caring if it's someone else trying to do it next).
This is the same paradigm that Terrifying Howl already had, not an oddity unique to Dazzling Display.
Forgot about terrifying howl. Makes sense now
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