Pictire this example.
You're an human sorcerer pf tenth level that just did the Third Apotheosis ritual to become an half-fiend and you retrained two of your feats for Possession and Improved Possession.
If you possess an Aranea, that has a racial sorcerer caster level of 5 does it stack with your sorcerer levels as per monster rules?
"Step 2: Add Class Levels
Once you have determined the creature’s role, it’s time to add class levels. The first step of this process is to modify the creature’s ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities. Creatures with NPC class levels do not receive adjustments to their ability scores.
Next, add the class levels to the monster, making all of the necessary additions to its HD, hit points, BAB, CMB, CMD, feats, skills, spells, and class features. If the creature possesses class features (such as spellcasting or sneak attack) for the class that is being added, these abilities stack. This functions just like adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice"
Do you stack them with yours when calculating your spells each day? (Possession lasts 24 hours when improved)
What if the Aranea had the Human Guise feat and counted as a human like yourself so that Mind Swap, Major could be used instead?
In short, is there any way in game to access those extra racial caster levels and have them stack with yours?
Obbiously i'm already aware it could be unbalanced but lately i've been looking for the extremes raw allows, for fun. (Except for infinite combos because i dislike them)
It would be easier if you gave a page link for Possession and Improved Possession or the sorcerer template or the apotheosis so I don't have to search through a bunch of rituals. Or I might be looking at Demonic Possession and that might not be the one you're talking about. Just for the future.
Improved Possession wrote: Your ability to possess bodies is more powerful.
Prerequisite(s): Demonic Possession or shadow demon, Cha 25
Benefit: The duration of your magic jar spell-like ability increases to 24 hours. You can choose to activate a host body’s extraordinary abilities, supernatural abilities, spell-like abilities, and spells known or prepared.
Frostfire v3 wrote: If you possess an Aranea, that has a racial sorcerer caster level of 5 does it stack with your sorcerer levels as per monster rules? No. The creature's racial spell-like abilities are unrelated to class levels or even their own caster level (it could be lower than normally allowed to even use the ability). If the aranea themselves gained levels in the sorcerer class, they'd still be a 1st-level sorcerer with its own list of spell and spell per day (some of which could be the same as the race's SLA's). But they'd still have the CL 5 list, which would be unchanged.
If you took one over (with Improved Possession), you could use their SLA's at CL 5, whether you had a higher CL personally (or even no CL at all). If you Improve Possessed a 15th-level sorcerer (aranea or not), then you would be able to cast any of their prepared or known spells (limited to the slots they have remaining) at their CL; 15 rather than your 10. This is potentially very powerful, but it has to be that way because they didn't specify otherwise.
Frostfire v3 wrote: "Step 2: Add Class Levels
Once you have determined the creature’s role, it’s time to add class levels. The first step of this process is to modify the creature’s ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities. Creatures with NPC class levels do not receive adjustments to their ability scores.
Next, add the class levels to the monster, making all of the necessary additions to its HD, hit points, BAB, CMB, CMD, feats, skills, spells, and class features. If the creature possesses class features (such as spellcasting or sneak attack) for the class that is being added, these abilities stack. This functions just like adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice"
I am not sure what you are quoting here. You don't add class levels to a creature you possess. Its racial SLA's and CL are not associated with class levels. Nor would it suddenly gain an elite array or ability adjustments.
You would just use the physical abilities of the creature as it has listed. If it had 15 hit points, and Str 10, that's what it has when you possess it (unless you have an ability that makes possessed creatures stronger).
Frostfire v3 wrote: Do you stack them with yours when calculating your spells each day? No. They are separate. In the case of spell-like abilities (per day), those would refresh automatically and you would have access to those, but for spells prepared or spell slots, I would likely rule that the creature itself, even if you rested in its body, did not take the proper mental steps to refresh or prepare those spells (nor would I let you pray to a possessed cleric's deity to get access to their spells, even at the right time of day).
Frostfire v3 wrote: is there any way in game to access those extra racial caster levels and have them stack with yours? I can't say for certain, but not using the methods you have described. Even if a creature had a spell-like ability and its own bestiary entry said that their CL stacked with their CL from classes (which is entirely possible), you would just be using their ability at their racial CL added to their class CL, not your own CL.
Frostfire v3 wrote: What if the Aranea had the Human Guise feat and counted as a human like yourself so that Mind Swap, Major could be used instead? I don't know what the aranea or the Human Guise feat, or what it counting as a human, has to do with mind swap. I don't see where that is an issue. This is one reason it helps to link what spells and feats, and abilities you are referring to, because I might not be looking at the same ones.
Bearing in mind that Improved Possession (which seems to require Demonic Possession or being a shadow fiend) is likely RAI to only work with their magic jar ability (specifically their SLA magic jar), if, for the sake of argument we ignore that or just assume it is intended to work with possession effects from any source, I would say that this still wouldn't work.
I would likely rule (on the assumption Improved Possession works with mind swap) that you could still use the aranea's racial SLA's, since those are part of the body, but you actually couldn't use any spells known or prepared or slots, because those are held in the creature's mind, not body, and that mind is now in your old body, not subsumed or suppressed or held captive in the body you are in, unlike with a normal possession (which is the typical assumption for the feat).
Pizza Lord wrote: It would be easier if you gave a page link for Possession and Improved Possession or the sorcerer template or the apotheosis so I don't have to search through a bunch of rituals. Or I might be looking at Demonic Possession and that might not be the one you're talking about. Just for the future.
Improved Possession wrote: Your ability to possess bodies is more powerful.
Prerequisite(s): Demonic Possession or shadow demon, Cha 25
Benefit: The duration of your magic jar spell-like ability increases to 24 hours. You can choose to activate a host body’s extraordinary abilities, supernatural abilities, spell-like abilities, and spells known or prepared.
Frostfire v3 wrote: If you possess an Aranea, that has a racial sorcerer caster level of 5 does it stack with your sorcerer levels as per monster rules? No. The creature's racial spell-like abilities are unrelated to class levels or even their own caster level (it could be lower than normally allowed to even use the ability). If the aranea themselves gained levels in the sorcerer class, they'd still be a 1st-level sorcerer with its own list of spell and spell per day (some of which could be the same as the race's SLA's). But they'd still have the CL 5 list, which would be unchanged.
If you took one over (with Improved Possession), you could use their SLA's at CL 5, whether you had a higher CL personally (or even no CL at all). If you Improve Possessed a 15th-level sorcerer (aranea or not), then you would be able to cast any of their prepared or known spells (limited to the slots they have remaining) at their CL; 15 rather than your 10. This is potentially very powerful, but it has to be that way because they didn't specify otherwise.
Frostfire v3 wrote: "Step 2: Add Class Levels
Once you have determined the creature’s role, it’s time to add class levels. The first step of this process is to modify the creature’s ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities. Creatures with NPC class levels do not receive adjustments to their ability scores.
Next, add the class levels to the monster, making all of the necessary additions to its HD, hit points, BAB, CMB, CMD, feats, skills, spells, and class features. If the creature possesses class features (such as spellcasting or sneak attack) for the class that is being added, these abilities stack. This functions just like adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice"
I am not sure what you are quoting here. You don't add class levels to a creature you possess. Its racial SLA's and CL are not associated with class levels. Nor would it suddenly gain an elite array or ability adjustments.
He is citing stuff from the Bestiary, p. 294-207, Monster Advancement. Totally unrelated to possessing a creature.
When advancing a monster by adding class level, innate spellcasting that says things like "Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 5th; concentration +8)" increases, but in a somewhat weird way. As it has the spell of a 5th level sorcerer, adding 1 level in sorcery the aranea will give it the spell of a 6th level sorcerer but the bloodline powers of a 1st level sorcerer, and the aranea would have to choose a bloodline.
It is not possible to have two different sets of sorcerer spells at the same time.
The rules for advancing monsters are more guidelines that RAW rues, as there are lots of strange interactions and problems with evaluating the actual power of the monster after the changes.
Returning to the op question, what sorcerer spell and spellcasting the aranea can do doesn't matter, as magic jar states: "You can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body"
That mean that the aranea sorcerer spells aren't available at all.
Diego Rossi wrote: Returning to the op question, what sorcerer spell and spellcasting the aranea can do doesn't matter, as magic jar states: "You can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body"
That mean that the aranea sorcerer spells aren't available at all.
I think Improved Possession does allow it.
Pizza Lord wrote: Diego Rossi wrote: Returning to the op question, what sorcerer spell and spellcasting the aranea can do doesn't matter, as magic jar states: "You can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body"
That mean that the aranea sorcerer spells aren't available at all.
I think Improved Possession does allow it. You are right (and that shows why linking the abilities or posting them, as you did, matters), but it allows the use of the spells, it doesn't give the spellcasting class of the aranea, so they still don't cumulate.
It is very weird, as it is the only way I know (now) to have two sets of spells and caster levels for the same class at the same time.
Improved possesion wrote: You can choose to activate a host body’s extraordinary abilities, supernatural abilities, spelllike abilities, and spells known or prepared. You activate the host body's abilities. It works (more or less) like activating a magic item. The abilities are fixed, those of the body, and separated from those of the possessing mind.
I didn't post those feat because i thought they were widely known and just a google search away whike the monster advancement rules are very well hidden i didn't expect anyone to know about them.
Next time i'll post all of the proper links.
Anyway, you guys figured out the interaction by yourselves but i'm quite unsure with Diego's ruling on having two separate sorcerer classes.
I believe that disregarding those rules creates more confusion l, with two separate pools instead of one.
It seems to me that the pc would end up being a monster with class levels in all senses and so those rules should apply to him.
Also worth noting that Magic jar mentions that you don't retain spell-like abilities and supernatural ones, racial spells are a special ability that is neither Su or Sp so it should be retained like Ex abilities.
Even an unimproved Magic Jar should retain the racial spellcasting BUT he is not allowed to utilize those spells because It's specified that you cannot cast the body's spells.
Regarding human guise, the feat allows you to be treated as being a human for targetting purposes making the aranea effectively a human.
Mind Swap Major requires a target of your same race for a permanent (instantaneous, truly permanent) Magic Jar effect.
The improved possession feat improves all of your magic jar effects, not only the one from the SLA.
Essentially this forces a situation where you can sleep and prepare new spells because the effects is long enough and differently from a normal magic jar its not temporary.
The question being, would the fact that the Aranea is your true new body change anything regarding the interaction?
Frostfire v3 wrote: Anyway, you guys figured out the interaction by yourselves but i'm quite unsure with Diego's ruling on having two separate sorcerer classes.
I believe that disregarding those rules creates more confusion l, with two separate pools instead of one.
It seems to me that the pc would end up being a monster with class levels in all senses and so those rules should apply to him.
The rules on the bestiary are for advancing a monster. You aren't advancing any monster, you are possessing one.
Frostfire v3 wrote: Regarding human guise, the feat allows you to be treated as being a human for targetting purposes making the aranea effectively a human.
Mind Swap Major requires a target of your same race for a permanent (instantaneous, truly permanent) Magic Jar effect.
The improved possession feat improves all of your magic jar effects, not only the one from the SLA.
But you aren't a human anymore, you are an outsider (native).
Half Fiend template wrote: Type: The creature's type changes to outsider (native). Do not recalculate HD, BAB, or saves. Mind Swap Major uses Possession, not Magic Jar.
Quote: Possession and Magic Jar
The old magic jar spell is unwieldy, particularly with respect to creatures like ghosts and shadow demons that don’t really use a jar at all. Consider replacing magic jar with the new possession spells for both spellcasters and monsters. Likewise, consider using spells based on possession rather than magic jar.
"Consider" means that the swap isn't automatic.
To put it in simple terms, you are taking pieces of rules from several splatbooks and mixing and matching them, disregarding some of the rules involved and taking for granted things that your GM should decide.
At this point asking a RAW opinion has little use. Ask your GM.
For a home game his opinion is what matters.
Diego Rossi wrote: Frostfire v3 wrote: Anyway, you guys figured out the interaction by yourselves but i'm quite unsure with Diego's ruling on having two separate sorcerer classes.
I believe that disregarding those rules creates more confusion l, with two separate pools instead of one.
It seems to me that the pc would end up being a monster with class levels in all senses and so those rules should apply to him.
The rules on the bestiary are for advancing a monster. You aren't advancing any monster, you are possessing one.
Frostfire v3 wrote: Regarding human guise, the feat allows you to be treated as being a human for targetting purposes making the aranea effectively a human.
Mind Swap Major requires a target of your same race for a permanent (instantaneous, truly permanent) Magic Jar effect.
The improved possession feat improves all of your magic jar effects, not only the one from the SLA.
But you aren't a human anymore, you are an outsider (native).
Half Fiend template wrote: Type: The creature's type changes to outsider (native). Do not recalculate HD, BAB, or saves. Mind Swap Major uses Possession, not Magic Jar.
Quote: Possession and Magic Jar
The old magic jar spell is unwieldy, particularly with respect to creatures like ghosts and shadow demons that don’t really use a jar at all. Consider replacing magic jar with the new possession spells for both spellcasters and monsters. Likewise, consider using spells based on possession rather than magic jar.
"Consider" means that the swap isn't automatic.
To put it in simple terms, you are taking pieces of rules from several splatbooks and mixing and matching them, disregarding some of the rules involved and taking for granted things that your GM should decide.
At this point asking a RAW opinion has little use. Ask your GM.
For a home game his opinion is what matters. 1) Right.. but if you permanently become that monster and then advance in you class levels.. aren't you advancing a monster?
Expecially if you use Mind Swap, Major.
In a different case, if you get reincarnated into a Bugbear (wich is a monster in all respects) or become a ghoul (wich is also a template, but usually you become the creature itself)
when you take a level aren't you advancing a creature?
2) Type and Race are two distinct things, and the character still retains the human subtype while being an outsider.
Mind Swap Major only cares about the race.
3) Even tho Mind Swap uses possession as it's base all of the interactions i mentioned still work with it.
4) I would'nt have to look for rules everywhere if they, for example, were organized in a logical manner instead of being spread around 20 books.
Also your disregard for some rules is incomprehensible to me, what are you doing in the rules subsection?
Cohorts necessitate of those same rules, yet i've never heard anyone specifically saying that they have to be ignored because they come from a splat book or because they are not inherently related to cohorts.
5) And while it is true that a GM has the last word on rulings it is also true that i's more intelligent to know the rules as they are before changing them.
And on this note i would like to know what rules i'm disregarding, wich is the reason of this post itself.
But also note that i specified i'm doing this for fun, implying i'm by myself.
What is the point of making a character for fun if i chose how the rules work instead of using the game mechanics?!
Frostfire v3 wrote:
1) Right.. but if you permanently become that monster and then advance in you class levels.. aren't you advancing a monster?...
advancing a monster
the advancing a monster rules are for a gm, not really designed with players using them.
things like "Add Class Levels
Once you have determined the creature’s role, it’s time to add class levels. The first step of this process is to modify the creature’s ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities" shouldn't apply to players, especially with body swap shenanigans.
or would you say the other rules like "A monster with class levels always possesses treasure equal to an NPC of a level equal to the monster’s final CR (as calculated in Step 3, below). To determine the value of this gear, use the value listed for a heroic NPC of that level, as listed in Table NPC Gear." and have npc wealth for no discernable in game reason?
Frostfire v3 wrote: 1) Right.. but if you permanently become that monster and then advance in you class levels.. aren't you advancing a monster? [Assuming we are talking about greater mind swap in this case, which allows permanent body and mind swapping]
No. Technically you are advancing yourself. You are already assumed to be using an elite array (even if your campaign's ability score generation isn't point-buy or random roll or even worse than elite array might have allowed because you rolled poorly).
You, the character, are assumed to have the stats of a unique or classed creature in most expectations. You would not get to add +4, +4, +2, +2, 0, –2 to [the/your new] body's current abilities on leveling in your new body. You already have classes and thus the body has those, it's no longer a separate thing from your character, just like if you created or started the character as an aranea (though your hit points and HD will be different).
You're no longer a 10th-level elf sorcerer in an aranea's body, you're a 10th-level aranea sorcerer that started life as an elf (but you'd have the hit points of the 10th-level elf sorcerer you were, adjusted for the aranea body's Con, as per greater mind swap.) And the aranea would be in an elf body, they'd have low-light vision, Stealth or Perception skill bonuses, etc. and they'd have their spell-like abilities. (Mind swap is not magic jar for purposes of Improved Possession, so you wouldn't get the body's SLA and such like you would in those cases).
Technically, you'd still be in a 3HD creature's body, which could influence some of your body's ability DCs (assuming you are ruling mind swap to be valid with Improved Possession, which by the Rules it wouldn't, but if you house-ruled it that way). But you'd not have the hit points of a 3 HD aranea.
Name Violation wrote: Frostfire v3 wrote:
1) Right.. but if you permanently become that monster and then advance in you class levels.. aren't you advancing a monster?...
advancing a monster
the advancing a monster rules are for a gm, not really designed with players using them.
things like "Add Class Levels
Once you have determined the creature’s role, it’s time to add class levels. The first step of this process is to modify the creature’s ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities" shouldn't apply to players, especially with body swap shenanigans.
or would you say the other rules like "A monster with class levels always possesses treasure equal to an NPC of a level equal to the monster’s final CR (as calculated in Step 3, below). To determine the value of this gear, use the value listed for a heroic NPC of that level, as listed in Table NPC Gear." and have npc wealth for no discernable in game reason? I know this, but since it is also possible for a PC to become a monster those rules are the closest thing that has been printed that can solve the situation. (That i could find)
Let's say those rules didn't exist at all and the character still found itself in the situation of being a monster with racial sorcerer levels while being a sorcerer itself.
How would you proceed?
From the faerie dragon page:
"Spells
A faerie dragon casts spells as a 3rd-level sorcerer "
From the Sorcerer's Spells entry:
"A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known"
Judging by the ability's description the only logical way to proceed, in my view, is to have it stack, simply starting 3 levels higher in the Sorcerer's Spells Knowk tab.
The monster's race truly has the casting abilities of a sorcerer, minus the bloodline.
For sure i wouldn't have two separate sorcerer progressions.
The bestiary entry is only there to reinforce the argument, even if we chose to disregard those rules the situation can still occour.
Pizza Lord wrote: Frostfire v3 wrote: 1) Right.. but if you permanently become that monster and then advance in you class levels.. aren't you advancing a monster? [Assuming we are talking about greater mind swap in this case, which allows permanent body and mind swapping]
No. Technically you are advancing yourself. You are already assumed to be using an elite array (even if your campaign's ability score generation isn't point-buy or random roll or even worse than elite array might have allowed because you rolled poorly).
You, the character, are assumed to have the stats of a unique or classed creature in most expectations. You would not get to add +4, +4, +2, +2, 0, –2 to [the/your new] body's current abilities on leveling in your new body. You already have classes and thus the body has those, it's no longer a separate thing from your character, just like if you created or started the character as an aranea (though your hit points and HD will be different).
You're no longer a 10th-level elf sorcerer in an aranea's body, you're a 10th-level aranea sorcerer that started life as an elf (but you'd have the hit points of the 10th-level elf sorcerer you were, adjusted for the aranea body's Con, as per greater mind swap.) And the aranea would be in an elf body, they'd have low-light vision, Stealth or Perception skill bonuses, etc. and they'd have their spell-like abilities. (Mind swap is not magic jar for purposes of Improved Possession, so you wouldn't get the body's SLA and such like you would in those cases).
Technically, you'd still be in a 3HD creature's body, which could influence some of your body's ability DCs (assuming you are ruling mind swap to be valid with Improved Possession, which by the Rules it wouldn't, but if you house-ruled it that way). But you'd not have the hit points of a 3 HD aranea. I never intended for the character to gain those bonus stats, in the opening post the question is specifically about what happens when you permanently become a creature with caster levels and if they stack LIKE in the monster rules.
I believe your ruling might be right on the bonus attributes in thise situation.
But being honest i know there's some exceptions, like the swan maiden turning you into another swan maiden and making you lose all your class levels, in that case once you gain your first new class level you should gain those bonus stats by those rules logic.
I have to correct you, the Aranea cannot retain any Spell-Like abilities because he doesn't have any.
An Aranea has spells like a sorcerer, that ability is neither Sp or Su so when you possess it you retain it like an Ex ability the body had. (Fast healing for example)
About Mind Swap not being Magic Jar, it's explained by paizo that possession is magic jar and that it should be substituted.
Diego posted it before.
It says: since Magic Jar works like crap since 3.5 we decided to write it like a proper human would and we advise you to use that instead.
Quoted from the book itself.
Improved possession was created before they made the simplified version called Possession while Mind Swap came after.
Obviously they're not gonna use the dated and broken version of the spell but the improved one they've made for future reference.
And since they printed a rule that says you should sunstitute the spell they didn't bother making an errata for each Magic Jar entry in the game.
Edit: you're probably referring to the fact that Imoroved Possession only works with the SLA.
I doubt that because there is a dot in the middle of the sentence.
The first part improves the SLA while the second improves all possessions.
Similarly to how other feats and magic items have been ruled to work when two sentences were separated by a dot.
I believe a shadow demon casting possession should still benefit from the feat, both RAW and RAI.
Edit edit: I just realized that improved possession is not needed at all for the combo, because i don't care about using his prepared or known spells but i care about his Spells Ability and that is retained by the base possession.
Cannot use the spells he knows but you can use his inherent magical abilities.
Frostfire v3 wrote: About Mind Swap not being Magic Jar, it's explained by paizo that possession is magic jar and that it should be substituted. Incorrect. Paizo said that should consider substituting Mind Jar with Possession. That means that the GM should adapt everything that comes with that substitution. It isn't a 1 to 1 equivalency.
Just to point out a different problem. When you take over permanently the aranea body, you aren't any more a half-fiend human, you are an aranea.
As a consequence, you aren't any more a demon or a half-demon (the prerequisite for Demonic Possession) so Demonic Possession stops working. Problem solved, you don't have the aranea spells anymore.
Another little tidbit where you missed some rules:
Demonic possession wrote: Prerequisites: Demon or half-demon, Cha 21, Wis 17 Half-fiend doesn't make you a half-demon, that is a specific template.
Half-demon wrote: When a demon breeds with a mortal humanoid, the resulting birth is often a specific sub-category of half-fiend—a half-demon. Certain rituals can ensure that the resulting child is a half-demon rather than a half-fiend: such rituals are common in certain demon-worshiping cults, and some demons seek to sire or birth such children for their own sinister purposes. From the text of the half-demon template, you can get it only at birth.
For your trick, you need the Fourth Apotheosis, which specifically transforms you into a demon.
Diego Rossi wrote: Frostfire v3 wrote: About Mind Swap not being Magic Jar, it's explained by paizo that possession is magic jar and that it should be substituted. Incorrect. Paizo said that should consider substituting Mind Jar with Possession. That means that the GM should adapt everything that comes with that substitution. It isn't a 1 to 1 equivalency.
Just to point out a different problem. When you take over permanently the aranea body, you aren't any more a half-fiend human, you are an aranea.
As a consequence, you aren't any more a demon or a half-demon (the prerequisite for Demonic Possession) so Demonic Possession stops working. Problem solved, you don't have the aranea spells anymore.
Another little tidbit where you missed some rules:
Demonic possession wrote: Prerequisites: Demon or half-demon, Cha 21, Wis 17 Half-fiend doesn't make you a half-demon, that is a specific template.
Half-demon wrote: When a demon breeds with a mortal humanoid, the resulting birth is often a specific sub-category of half-fiend—a half-demon. Certain rituals can ensure that the resulting child is a half-demon rather than a half-fiend: such rituals are common in certain demon-worshiping cults, and some demons seek to sire or birth such children for their own sinister purposes. From the text of the half-demon template, you can get it only at birth.
For your trick, you need the Fourth Apotheosis, which specifically transforms you into a demon.
1) I believe Paizo advising the players to do the switch is enought to convey their intent.
Did you expect them to write: Switch to possession, or else the next book will cost 20% more!
2) Your ruling about being an Aranea is a little wierd since you still retain your Spell-Like abilities you got from being a Half-Fiend and your whole body is inside of the target since it uses Greater Possession.
I'm also quite sure that since the minds inside a possessed body can be targeted separately the character should still be treated as an Half fiend in that regard.
Not only that but the situation would still be present if instead of using the half-demon template for my example i said the character has the Planar Heritage:Nabasu or Half Demon feat that would be retained while possessing.
But this is not important for the interaction anymore, i explained in a previous post that i noticed how Possession/Magic Jar don't allow you to use Su ans Sla special abilities but all the others are allowed and the racial spellcasting is neither.
This means that you cannot use the spells known by the creature possessed but you still retain the ability for yourself.
3) Even tho it's called Half Fiend template all of the fiends you can become are indeed demons, like Half-Balor.
And funnily enough there is no such thing as an Half demon in pathfinder wich makes me truly believe they're the same thing.
I have no idea where you found that quote, it points to me being wrong but i couldn't find anything abuout these half demons, not even a statblock.
The Fourth Apotheosis would definitely work, didn't think it was necessary, it would have worked better for the example probably.
Planar heritage would have been better also, but i didn't want to get into the debate if a monster has a race or not.
Edit: I'm wrong on point 3, half fiend is the aqquired templare and if you get it from birth you're an half demon with all the cool stuff.
I see you continue to move the goal, one moment you cite Grater Possession, the next Mind Swap, Major.
When I did say:
Diego Rossi wrote: When you take over permanently the aranea body, I thought it was clear it was about Mind Swap, Major.
Frostfire v3 wrote: 2) Your ruling about being an Aranea is a little wierd since you still retain your Spell-Like abilities you got from being a Half-Fiend and your whole body is inside of the target since it uses Greater Possession.
If we move back to Possession it is correct, but when we speak of Mind Swap, Major we speak of an (almost) irreversible change of type. Only other spells that allow you to change your type will reverse the change.
The instantaneous change to aranea is the basis of your whole argument. At that point, you are an aranea, while the other guy is a half-fiend with your old body.
Frostfire v3 wrote: 3) Even tho it's called Half Fiend template all of the fiends you can become are indeed demons, like Half-Balor.
And funnily enough there is no such thing as an Half demon in pathfinder wich makes me truly believe they're the same thing.
I have no idea where you found that quote, it points to me being wrong but i couldn't find anything abuout these half demons, not even a statblock.
The Fourth Apotheosis would definitely work, didn't think it was necessary, it would have worked better for the example probably.
Planar heritage would have been better also, but i didn't want to get into the debate if a monster has a race or not.
Edit: I'm wrong on point 3, half fiend is the aqquired templare and if you get it from birth you're an half demon with all the cool stuff.
Half fiend
Scroll down and you will find the rules for half-demons.
As I already cited, it says:
Quote: When a demon breeds with a mortal humanoid, the resulting birth is often a specific sub-category of half-fiend—a half-demon. Certain rituals can ensure that the resulting child is a half-demon rather than a half-fiend: such rituals are common in certain demon-worshiping cults, and some demons seek to sire or birth such children for their own sinister purposes. And it continues with:
Quote: Each of the following chapters presents adjustments to the half-fiend template when generating a specific half-demon; you can use these 10 examples to generate new half-demon templates for demons not detailed in this book The sourcebook is the same one you used for the Possession and Improved Possessions feat, Demons Revisited, but earlier you missed the template.
For Mind Swap, Greater the Fourth Apotheosis, will not work, as you could possess only other demos of your race. When changing bodies you would get the same stuff you left behind.
Frostfire v3 wrote: 1) I believe Paizo advising the players to do the switch is enought to convey their intent.
Did you expect them to write: Switch to possession, or else the next book will cost 20% more!
They said "consider" because the use of Possession instead of Magic Jar wasn't considered in the earlier books, so the change requires GM adjudication in all corner cases.
Frostfire v3 wrote: Not only that but the situation would still be present if instead of using the half-demon template for my example i said the character has the Planar Heritage:Nabasu or Half Demon feat that would be retained while possessing. Again a reply that works if you use Possession but doesn't work if you use Mind Swap, Major. Maybe you should start two separate threads, one for each spell, as they have very different consequences.
Quote: Planar Heritage
Source Planar Adventures pg. 31
You can trace your ancestry to a type of native outsider, even though you yourself are otherwise fully human.
Prerequisites: Human.
When you use Mind Swap, Major, you stop being human (unless you possess a human), so even this feat stops working.
What is the Half Demon Feat? Can you link it?
- * - * -
The whole reason why Mind Swap, Major can't be cast on members of a different race is that it will create all the problems we have in this thread.
"What is a race?" Never adequately defined by the rules.
"What do you retain when you change your type?" Again, not well defined.
"How does it work when you suddenly and permanently mix the body of a race with racial spellcasting levels and a mind with levels in the same class?" Neither Paizo nor Wizard of the Coast have ever touched that, AFAIK.
Diego Rossi wrote: I see you continue to move the goal, one moment you cite Grater Possession, the next Mind Swap, Major.
When I did say:
Diego Rossi wrote: When you take over permanently the aranea body, I thought it was clear it was about Mind Swap, Major.
Frostfire v3 wrote: 2) Your ruling about being an Aranea is a little wierd since you still retain your Spell-Like abilities you got from being a Half-Fiend and your whole body is inside of the target since it uses Greater Possession.
If we move back to Possession it is correct, but when we speak of Mind Swap, Major we speak of an (almost) irreversible change of type. Only other spells that allow you to change your type will reverse the change.
The instantaneous change to aranea is the basis of your whole argument. At that point, you are an aranea, while the other guy is a half-fiend with your old body.
I dont see the problem in using possession as the base for my examples since it is the same spell that is used as a base for both possession and Mind Swap, Major.
Ans since Mind Swap IS posssssion but with instantaneous duration the ruling HAS to be the same for both the temporary and permanent version.
The fact that it seems more permanent to your eyes doesn't change the ruling because it still uses possesion and it's rules as its base.
Also i don't know what you're talking about with moving my goal, what goal?
I corrected myself about me being wrong about half demons, really thought they were the same.
Every rules that works with possession must be applied to mind swap major since they both use the same base with the same rules, repeating myself here.
Planar heritage also says you count as a human, so even if you swap races youre still a human and the feat still works.
The other work around is using human guise so the target always counts as a human as long as he is in human form, wich is the solution i proposed in the first post to become an aranea.
The half demon feat is Planar Heritage - Half demon, i believe it shpuld work in the same way as Racial Heritage Half Elf, expecially in the light of half demons truly being their own specific race, like in the description you posted.
Diego Rossi wrote: Frostfire v3 wrote: 1) I believe Paizo advising the players to do the switch is enought to convey their intent.
Did you expect them to write: Switch to possession, or else the next book will cost 20% more!
They said "consider" because the use of Possession instead of Magic Jar wasn't considered in the earlier books, so the change requires GM adjudication in all corner cases.
I wonder if that is because possession didn't exist at the time and it was printed just to substitute magic jar lol
Frostfire v3 wrote: Diego Rossi wrote: Frostfire v3 wrote: 1) I believe Paizo advising the players to do the switch is enought to convey their intent.
Did you expect them to write: Switch to possession, or else the next book will cost 20% more!
They said "consider" because the use of Possession instead of Magic Jar wasn't considered in the earlier books, so the change requires GM adjudication in all corner cases.
I wonder if that is because possession didn't exist at the time and it was printed just to substitute magic jar lol And exactly because Possession didn't exist, the rules don't consider it.
That requires that the GM do it.
Possession doesn't change your type, as it is a temporary effect. Mind Swap, Greater, does change your type. So, the interaction with other effects changes.
And "Planar heritage also says you count as a human, so even if you swap races youre still a human and the feat still works." is circular logic. "I can have the feat because I am human because the feat says that I am human."
What do you are at the end, in your mind? An "Aranea, Human, Half Shadow Demon"?
Maybe you should go and read the threads about Tail terror and Tacial heritage: Kobold.
Diego Rossi wrote: Possession doesn't change your type, as it is a temporary effect. Mind Swap, Greater, does change your type. So, the interaction with other effects changes.
And "Planar heritage also says you count as a human, so even if you swap races youre still a human and the feat still works." is circular logic. "I can have the feat because I am human because the feat says that I am human."
What do you are at the end, in your mind? An "Aranea, Human, Half Shadow Demon"?
Maybe you should go and read the threads about Tail terror and Tacial heritage: Kobold.
Possession doesn't change your type while Mind Swap does is a made up rule, both change your types.
I don't care if it is circular logic, it works by RAW.
Stacking templates is nothing new, you cam be things even weirder than thay Aranea Human Demon.
But anyway, i give up.
The only one replying is you and you're not helpful in any way, it feels like instead of helping me understand the rules you want me to accept those you make up in your mind.
Never had a conversation with you like this, but to be honest i noticed your name in an astounding amount of threads and your advices are always overly restrictive, made up or wrong.
So much so that you became a personal meme for me.
I gave it a shot anyway, knowing what i was going into and i'm honestly not surprised.
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