Your iron grip slowly saps your opponent's strength. Attempt an Athletics check to Grapple the creature you have grabbed or restrained, with the following effects instead of the usual effects.
So we have the enemy grappled, then we use this (Submission Hold) to extend the grapple until the end of the enemies next turn. So my question is what does "instead of the usual effects" in the description mean. Isn't this basically just adding Enfeebled on top of Flat footed?
So instead of simply grappling to extend to the next round and possibly it resulting in a crit success to Restrain, the Submission Hold has zero percent chance of that but instead on a crit gets this?
Critical Success The target is enfeebled 2 until the end of its next turn and enfeebled 1 for 1 minute.
Lastly, since it only lasts until the end of the enemies turn, they don't even need to attempt to escape, they will automatically be free from the grapple won't they? Or will they remain "grappled" but free of the Submission Hold?
1. "Instead of the usual effects" means that nothing Grapple normally does matters here. The listed results are the ONLY things that submission hold does.
2. It does not affect the duration of the Grabbed or Restrained condition that you already inflicted.
3. It ends when it says it ends, without requiring any Escape.
To look at it another way, why does it bother to say "make a check to Grapple" instead of just having the Attack trait and saying "make an American check against the target's Fortitude DC"? Pretty much just so that things like Hrapple size requirements, Titan Wrestler modifying those, bonuses to Grapple, etc can apply to this action.
Ohhh, thanks very helpful! It seems just slightly underpowered, as goes for Spinebreaker. Wouldn't it be better to simply go for the Restrained condition instead of Submission Hold?
Depends on exactly what you're trying to do and to what creature. Remember that MAP applies and that the normal effects of Grapple (that Submission Hold doesn't have) include losing the Grabbed condition you already had on the target if you fail.
MAP applies to Submission Hold doesn't it?
MAP applies to Submission Hold doesn't it?
Yes, but the normal fail and crit fail effects don't.
Ohhh, thanks very helpful! It seems just slightly underpowered, as goes for Spinebreaker. Wouldn't it be better to simply go for the Restrained condition instead of Submission Hold?
I know very few ways for a non-spellcaster to apply Enfeebled or Clumsy on an enemy. So these feats gives additional options rather than additional power.
Hmm good point just not sure if on a barbarian chassis it's worth it however. I remember years ago, a wise man once said "the best condition to conflict is death"
That is a PF1 mentality and saying. Back when you could reasonably one-shot enemies.
In PF2 inflicting the Dead condition is still the end goal, but getting there is more challenging and takes more than one action. Inflicting other conditions with one action is quite useful.
That is a PF1 mentality and saying. Back when you could reasonably one-shot enemies.
In PF2 inflicting the Dead condition is still the end goal, but getting there is more challenging and takes more than one action. Inflicting other conditions with one action is quite useful.
And what a saying it was my friend