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Finoan |
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"Ability score and modifier" was renamed. Now that is "Attribute modifier". So that is one less meaning of the word.
'Ability' is a bit loosely defined. It is something that the character can do because of a feat or a class feature.
Electric Arc itself is a spell. But being able to cast Electric Arc is an ability.
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Fuzzy-Wuzzy |
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The most technical defn provided is
ability This is a general term referring to rules that provide an exception to the basic rules. An ability could come from a number of sources, so “an ability that gives you a bonus to damage rolls” could be a feat, a spell, and so on.
Beyond that, it's basically the English word "ability."
Do you have an ambiguous use case where it matters?
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Cunningallusionment |
Do you have an ambiguous use case where it matters?
Is a weapon trait an "ability" for the purposes of Ruffian's restriction on what weapons it applies sneak attack to? Does fatal negate Ruffian's sneak attack? I feel like a weapon trait is not an ability. But the PC1 section you quoted seems like a trait is an ability, but if the spell "electric arc" is not an ability, but casting a spell is, then maybe the fatal trait is not an ability.
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Finoan |
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Yeah, it helps to ask the question you actually have.
A weapon trait really isn't an ability.
The interaction between sneak attack and fatal is a bit undefined. At worst, if you crit with the fatal weapon and it increases the weapon's die size to a size that is too large for sneak attack to apply, then you wouldn't get the sneak attack damage on that attack - just the normal critical weapon damage. I would probably let you as the player choose whether to use the fatal trait to get the larger die size, or forego the fatal trait and keep the sneak attack. I think in most cases the sneak attack doubled due to crit is going to be better than the die size and extra die from fatal trait.
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Fuzzy-Wuzzy |
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The interaction between sneak attack and fatal is a bit undefined. At worst, if you crit with the fatal weapon and it increases the weapon's die size to a size that is too large for sneak attack to apply, then you wouldn't get the sneak attack damage on that attack - just the normal critical weapon damage. I would probably let you as the player choose whether to use the fatal trait to get the larger die size, or forego the fatal trait and keep the sneak attack. I think in most cases the sneak attack doubled due to crit is going to be better than the die size and extra die from fatal trait.
Agreed on all counts. I've seen the question come up in other threads but I haven't seen any better solutions.
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Cunningallusionment |
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Yeah, it helps to ask the question you actually have.
The question I actually had was "is the term ability well defined in the rules" because this has come up a couple of times. The issue about whether traits are abilities is just what reminded me that I couldn't find an answer to this last time. It seems like the answer to my core question is "no".
A weapon trait really isn't an ability.... I would probably let you as the player choose
This seems contradictory. If a weapon trait isn't an ability, than RAW, Ruffians should get both sneak attack and fatal because Ruffian's only prohibit applying sneak attack to weapons whose die size was increased due to an ability.
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Fuzzy-Wuzzy |
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This benefit doesn’t apply to a simple weapon with a damage die greater than d8 or a martial or advanced weapon with a damage die greater than d6. (Apply any abilities that alter the damage die size first.)
I doubt the writers were meaning to invoke a fine-tuned technical game meaning of 'abilities' far from the English meaning. IMHO they meant the same as "apply any effects that alter the damage die size first" or "apply anything that alters the damage die size first."
So I don't think it matters whether the damage die is being changed by a weapon trait, character trait, feat, spell, etc; just that it's changed.
Unfortunately fatal is still an edge case since its damage die change is conditional on a crit. So... back to the previous proposed solution for that particular case. :-/
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Claxon |
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Yeah, Fatal is kind of a weird area with respect to sneak attack because if you hadn't crit you could definitely apply sneak attack.
I lean towards ignoring fatal's die change for whether the ruffian rogue can get sneak attack. Or at least let a player choose if they happen to crit while also sneak attacking.
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Claxon |
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Thinking back on this, it would be really weird for a special condition (a critical hit) to somehow cause a rogue to not be able to use a weapon to deal sneak attack damage. If the idea is that rogues can't precisely wield a weapon with a die of certain size, then it especially makes no sense that an especially accurate attack suddenly can't have sneak attack.
The ruffians restriction is also kind of crappy since a base rogue without that racket (and the new rules regarding weapon proficiency for rogues) means you can wield an Elven Curve Blade (d8), Spiked Chain (d8), or Dueling Spear (d8) since they all have finesse.
I don't know how or if the ruffian racket was revised for remaster but it's restriction really stinks.