I was wondering about the Human Form of the Cassisian and how it works.
SQ change shape (2 of the following forms: Small human-like angel, dove, dog, or Tiny fish, polymorph)
Does the human form have any of the Cassisian's normal abilities? I want to assume it can fly, but does it gain a land speed? Can it use the breath attack?
Human-Like angel just means any angel that looks vaguely humanoid, as opposed to the animals listed thereafter. Examples include a Deva, Planetar, or Solar, but I doubt it was meant to mean it can look like specific kinds of angels and instead more so you look like a humanoid that has angelic features. You could use those examples as inspiration, but you wouldn't meaningfully gain their abilities beyond like just flight which the Cassisian already has anyway.
For what abilities it keeps, we can reasonably assume that since a dragon keeps its breath while change shape'd, so to would the Cassian, and everything else is fairly clearly a mental Ex ability or Su.
But of course the simplest way to look at this is that 99% of change shape abilities are meant to be flavorful social abilities, and not meaningfully help in combat.
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I was wondering about the Human Form of the Cassisian and how it works.
SQ change shape (2 of the following forms: Small human-like angel, dove, dog, or Tiny fish, polymorph)Does the human form have any of the Cassisian's normal abilities? I want to assume it can fly, but does it gain a land speed? Can it use the breath attack?
This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics).
Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
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While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.
This spell transforms a willing creature into an animal, humanoid or elemental of your choosing; the spell has no effect on unwilling creatures, nor can the creature being targeted by this spell influence the new form assumed (apart from conveying its wishes, if any, to you verbally).
If you use this spell to cause the target to take on the form of an animal or magical beast, the spell functions as beast shape II. If the form is that of an elemental, the spell functions as elemental body I. If the form is that of a humanoid, the spell functions as alter self. The subject may choose to resume its normal form as a full-round action; doing so ends the spell for that subject.
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.
The Cassian is under a polymorph spell, which means it loses any movement types associated with it's original form. So it can't fly anymore. It gains the movement speed of the particular form it changes to, which is a "human-like angel." "Angel" (an outsider) is not a valid form of the polymorph spell so I'd count it as a a human. No, it's not 100% clear. So 30' land speed.
It loses the breath attack because that's form-dependent. (If scent and darkvision don't work, a breath weapon surely wouldn't either.) It keeps its defenses (DR, immunities, and resistances) and spell-like abilities. It loses the slam.
I don't think a human-like angel should be considered a humanoid, at least not for the purpose of alter self. And it's clearly not an actual human, as humans aren't small.
The attempted creature would clearly be an outsider with the angel subtype. But also, you aren't taking the form of a listed creature, which alter self assumes. The whole ability seems off the tracks to me.
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The attempted creature would clearly be an outsider with the angel subtype.
Except that’s not something you can become with the polymorph spell. (Which is the spell type of the Cassian’s Change Shape ability.). So it can’t be taking the form of an outsider.
I don’t think anyone’s going to argue that if it used change shape to become a dog it would keep a fly speed.
We’re getting hung up on the words “human-like angel.” It would be much better if it said “angel-like human.”
A cassisian's true form is a helmet possessing a pair of bird's wings. The exact style of helmet varies by the deity the angel serves—most appear to be steel with angular cheek-plates, though some resemble bascinets, skullcaps, great helms, or even samurai helmets, and a few older cassisians appear to be bronze or even leather. Though cassisians can assume other forms (that of a child-sized angelic humanoid wearing a proportional helmet matching the cassisians' true form, a dove, a dog, or a fish), they find it strange and rarely stay in that form for more than a few minutes.
A Cassisian is already an outsider with the angle subtype. If you read the further down in the description it specifies the human form is that of a child-sized angelic humanoid. This makes it clear that it is not actually turning into a human. Since angels are often depicted as having wings it can be assumed that a child-sized angelic humanoid has wings.
... since a dragon keeps its breath while change shape'd ...
Wait, what?!?
Not intending to go off topic here, but that particular statement caught me by surprise. Where is it established that shapechanged dragons can still use their breath weapons?
(I'm definitely not trying to be combative here, it's just that I've never heard of that particular rules interpretation before. It sounds like an interesting/useful one but I really need to know the source/reasoning so that I can point to it myself if necessary.)
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
You only lose abilities that are based on your original form. The rules also state you might gain them back if they are possessed by the new form. So, the question is really what abilities rely on the helmet form, and what ability does a child-sized angelic humanoid have? As far as I can see every angle expect the Cassisian is a winged humanoid, so a child-sized angelic humanoid should have wings.
Does the breath weapon of the Cassian depend on its form? Since its form is that of a golden winged helm that does not even have a face, it does not seem likely the breath weapon is based on actually breathing. Most of its other abilities are standard for an angel so a child-sized angelic humanoid should have them. Perfect memory is a purely mental ability and should be retained in any form.
The other thing to consider is that the angel form is wearing a helm that matches the Cassisians’s true form. That leads to the question did the cassisian actually change its form, or did it simply grow a humanoid body.
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... since a dragon keeps its breath while change shape'd ...
Wait, what?!?
Not intending to go off topic here, but that particular statement caught me by surprise. Where is it established that shapechanged dragons can still use their breath weapons?
(I'm definitely not trying to be combative here, it's just that I've never heard of that particular rules interpretation before. It sounds like an interesting/useful one but I really need to know the source/reasoning so that I can point to it myself if necessary.)
Yeah, no. They shouldn’t be able to use their breath weapon.
We are told that you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on form and have several explicit examples of things that are lost when under a polymorph effect. Including darkvision. So trying to make the argument that you lose darkvision but not the breath weapon has to go something like this:
“Well, darkvision is based on the arrangement of rods and cones and whatnot in the eyes. So changing to another shape causes your eye shape to change. That’s why you lose darkvision. However, changing shape doesn’t do anything to your mouth, or glands, or helmet visor-slot, or whatever that allows you to breathe out a supernatural line/cone of damage.”
Now, if someone has a quote or FAQ to point to saying that the breath weapon is still usable I’ll happily congratulate their knowledge.
It’s fairly obvious the breath weapon of a dragon is based on its form. The breath weapon of a helm is not quite so well defined. The rules for what you lose are pretty specific that you only lose what is based on your original form. They also specify that you might retain some of your abilities if the new form also has them.
As I mentioned the description of the new form does state that it is wearing a helm that matches its true form. Since the new form is small and I assume the original helm was sized for a medium character that means the helm the new form is wearing is slightly smaller. Why could the breath weapon not come from the worn helm?
In most cases a polymorph would lose the breath weapon. I can see the validity of both sides in the case of the breath weapon in this case. This should be decided by the GM.
... since a dragon keeps its breath while change shape'd ...
Wait, what?!?
Not intending to go off topic here, but that particular statement caught me by surprise. Where is it established that shapechanged dragons can still use their breath weapons?
(I'm definitely not trying to be combative here, it's just that I've never heard of that particular rules interpretation before. It sounds like an interesting/useful one but I really need to know the source/reasoning so that I can point to it myself if necessary.)
Yeah, no. They shouldn’t be able to use their breath weapon.
We are told that you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on form and have several explicit examples of things that are lost when under a polymorph effect. Including darkvision. So trying to make the argument that you lose darkvision but not the breath weapon has to go something like this:
“Well, darkvision is based on the arrangement of rods and cones and whatnot in the eyes. So changing to another shape causes your eye shape to change. That’s why you lose darkvision. However, changing shape doesn’t do anything to your mouth, or glands, or helmet visor-slot, or whatever that allows you to breathe out a supernatural line/cone of damage.”
Now, if someone has a quote or FAQ to point to saying that the breath weapon is still usable I’ll happily congratulate their knowledge.
This is the source that I was using, as it predates pathfinder and refers to 3.5's polymorph assumptions, which are mostly unchanged with regards to "form-dependent abilities". The disagreement is more on "is a breath weapon form dependent" than what should be kept. In 3e, breath weapons like dragons' flight ability were clearly marked as Su abilities, and thus not form dependent, but obv we in PF do not have that luxury.
Oh wait, we do.
Breath Weapon (Su)
Now I would agree a dragon cannot crush a person in humanoid form, but I don't see why a humanoid form couldn't breathe energy when that is drawn from the same energy/power reserves that are still inside the polymorph dragon.
All that is kinda just my opinion tho, however, when I did look for the one case that I could think of for a dragon that prefers to fight in humanoid form, we have Kazavon from the Crimson Throne remaster. There he has no special attacks listed for his humanoid form (and his dragon form only has dragon abilities including breath weapon listed in this field). Maybe there's some egg on my face, but I still kinda disagree with that as being "clearly form dependent" especially when things like draconic sorcerers can do it too, but I also now think Kazavon could use it because his preferred human form is worse in every way than his dragon form.
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Breath Weapon (Su)Now I would agree a dragon cannot crush a person in humanoid form, but I don't see why a humanoid form couldn't breathe energy when that is drawn from the same energy/power reserves that are still inside the polymorph dragon.
Also there's this defining all breath weapons a supernatural ability:
Breath Weapon (Su) Some creatures can exhale a cone, line, or cloud of energy or other magical effects. . .
What I keep coming back to is this:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision). . .
Darkvision is the example I like to use. If you polymorph from a form with eyes and darkvision to a form with eyes (but no darkvision), you explicitly lose darkvision.
If you agree with that statement, how do you reconcile the idea that if you polymorph from a form with a mouth and a breath weapon to a form with a mouth (but no breath weapon), you keep the breath weapon?
I would reconcile it with a subset of that form has been imbued with a power that gets said breath weapon and the original creature is also the source of that same power. I would similarly assume that because say a devil make itself look like a human, and there are humans (e.g. infernal bloodline) that can see in darkness, this polymorphed devil would too.
That said, anything without X in the base form wouldn't get X because they tried to copy the exact same thing that something with X polymorphed into.
That at least would seem a reasonable explanation as we have to rely on such for what exactly "form dependent" means. The problem is just "too little fluff and crunch" for the rule to be meaningful.
So, does everyone agree the angel keeps its flight speed then? Does it gain a land speed? If it does gain a land speed, would it be 20 or 30?
He is a humanoid and almost all humanoids have a land speed. So, I would probably have it keep the flight and gain a land speed of 20. Its size in the humanoid form is child sized, which is small. I would also say it keeps the standard angelic abilities as well.
I found it odd that a helmet shaped creature counts as small size. That’s a rather large head