Nerfing Create Water (yes, really!) or how to make desert survival actually matter


Mummy's Mask

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

So as I was reminded today, Create Water is something of a problem.

It is an example of why I call a story-breaking spell. A spell which, while it might not have any particularly mechanic-breaking power, completely circumvents some challenges - and also undermine the actual world-building, unless playing a tippy-verse style campaign. (Which I wouldn't, personally.)

In this specific case, I am running a mega-campaign in Osirion, framed around the Mummy's Mask adventure path, but mixing in AD&D's Deserts of Desolation (into the middle two books in that relavnt section0, and as many PF1 Osirion modules and society bits as I could cram in.

The PCs will reach the relevant part of Shifting Sands at a first-order magnitude pass estimated level of 8. (It might be higher.)

(I'm playing a hybrid of 3.5/PF1, though it is more PF1 than 3.5 at this point.)

According to the rules a Medium creature ina hot environment requires 1 gallon of water per day, two if the temperature spikes.

Create Water, a 0th level spell, can create 2 gallons/level.

In 3.5, this would mean a single spellcaster would only be able to cast it four times. (8 gallaons/level.) Pathfinder 1 has this unlimited, but I have already capped some captrips - Create Water among them, along with 3.5's Cure/Inflict Minor Wounds - to only be able to be cast four times (same number as you would in 3.5) before being expended.

However, that's still 64 gallons of water per day at level 8 (from a single 0th level spell slot) - eight cubic feet, so maybe a bathfull? That means a single 0th level spell slot can obiviate the need for the party to carry water, as that would be enough for eight party members AND THEIR CAMELS (at 4 gallons/day so a total of 40 gallons), but horror of horrors, they'd require a second 0th level spell slot for hot days (where they'd need 80 gallons).

This kind of defeats the point of, like, ever having any challenge in survival.

"But Aotrs, adventurers shouldn't ever have to worry about being attacked resting or food or water, that's something that they should be able to hand-wave away as never being important!" I disagree and I don't want them to do that. Especially in a campaign in which that's... Kind of a point.

So, I need to fix one of two things.

One, nerf Create Water; either by reducing the amount it creates, or perhaps more reasonably, limiting the amount of water it can create per cast (ala spell damage dice cap) - or even, perhaps, raising the level of the spell. To the point it should mitigate - but not obiviate - the amount of water the PCs will have to deal with.

Two, adjudicate whether the quoted 1-2 gallons of water per day is actually (close enough to being) right and to adjust if not.

I am entirely open to other suggestions on how to make this work; perhaps by making sure the PCs carry sufficient containers for that water, but that seems (by the time you add a camel) almost trivial to fix.

How did everyone else handle this in Mummy's Mask specifically?

One other factor in play in this specific case is a limitation of the character classes the PCs can choose - specifially, they are not allowed to have any of the classes that have seen regular use (which basically wipes out the entire core classes of both 3.5/PF1), which should mitigate stuff like Rope Trick/Magnificant Mansion et al shanigans.

(This time. I was EXTREMELY generous to the current campaign's party in allowing the wizard to have a special, upgraded version of Rope Trick that was 3rd level but did not asplode when the party took theie Handy Haversacks in it when I realised that was what would happen with the regular version that they had been using.)

Create Food and Water is another potential problem, but at least that's coming off a 3rd level spell slot and would require either and oracle burnig a spell learned or a shaman in the party, neither of which is guarenteed; and scrolls, of course, would cost more.


I agree with you: as written Create Water is too powerful, at least as a cantrip.

Apart from (or in addition to) reducing the amount created, you could make cantrips have slots instead of being At Will, or increase the level of CW to 1st. It would help the wider world problems in that as long as you have a divine spellcaster not too far off then drought shouldn't ever be a major problem, but it won't help the immmediate issue.

Like Endure Elements, Create Water utterly negates one aspect of wilderness adventuring but it does so at the cost of the caster having to use resources on it. If Create Water also requires spell slots, suddenly things will be even more problematic - just the way we like it.

I can't help you much in personal experiences with MM because it was a solo game with a gestalt character so spending a couple of spell slots wasn't as big a deal.


It is literally not a problem. This is game where the ultimate solution to travel concerns is to learn to teleport.

In Mummy's Mask, by the time the party is exploring the desert, they are level 8. They already have access to 4th level spells.

Create Food & Water, a Wand of Endure Elements, Create Water, and Conjure Carriage were in fact our travel solutions. Just as well really because the desert exploring section of Mummy's Mask is, actually, awful.

We still carried supplies and used actual pack animals as our concession to the person casting those spells dying, but when you're being hunted by a cult, you don't want a caravan of 20 to 50 people supporting your trek into the wastes.

If the party pools their money to get a decanter of Endless Water (A relative cheap expense at those levels when spread over 4 people) and all the water problems are also solved forever.

Pathfinder has never been that kind of game past level 4.


My first thought is: Mummy's Mask isn't about resource management; they'll be too powerful at that level for the heat to matter anyways.

But a more constructive answer that could actually help you is: I don't remember where in the Mummy's Mask board I saw it, but someone had the idea of water / cold-based spells having a caster level check and the spirits / elemental powers in the area get aggitated if someone casts too many water / cold-based spells so they'll track down the source of the disruption and try to stop it. (Read: elementals or some other type of creature shows up and attacks the party. Something with a blue dragon's "Desert Thirst" ability or a dust / sand-based creature would be thematically appropriate.)


I'm fine with D&D ignoring petty resource management at higher levels - that's just part of the fun of becoming more powerful. The problem is that resource management is pretty easy even at level 1 with infinite cantrips.


The DC to provide food and water for yourself in harsh conditions is DC 20. For every 4 you beat that DC by you get one more person provided for.

That's hard for level 1s certainly, but at that level so is Everything Else.

Deserts are hard to navigate as you can see no landmarks for miles. Players are very used to the GM putting a map out and just pointing in a direction and getting there, because actually following the rules for exploration are tiring.

If you want to travel forty miles, a party with a dwarf, halfling, gnome or small race has a speed of 20, or if anyone is wearing heavy armor, or anything else. They can travel 2 miles an hour, except that desert terrain is half speed. 1 mile an hour. That's eight miles in a day of travel. It will take five days to travel that distance, but!

Checking to see if PCs get lost while navigating is done every hour. Then a check to see if they realize they're lost. Then a check to get back on track.

And we're doing checks for temperature exposure.

All while checking for random encounters.

Imagine how much fun this is using the encumbrance rules. Its impossible to carry enough food or water without a pack animal or wagon. Which increases the amount of weight and supplies you need and...

Look, if someone wants to play The Oregon Trail at their table and everyone has fun doing it, great. The system provides plenty of ways for this to be difficult...for sub level 5 characters.

Making it more difficult just because you don't like magic reducing the load on people seems arbitrary.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Adventure Path / Mummy's Mask / Nerfing Create Water (yes, really!) or how to make desert survival actually matter All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.