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"...A character gains training in certain skills at 1st level: typically two skills from their background, a small number of predetermined skills from their class, and several skills of your choice granted by your class. This training increases your proficiency ranks for those skills to trained instead of untrained and lets you use more of the skills’ actions. Sometimes you might gain training in a specific skill from multiple sources, such as if your background granted training in Crafting and you took the alchemist class, which also grants training in Crafting. Each time after the first that you would gain the trained proficiency rank in a given skill, you instead allocate the trained proficiency to any other skill of your choice..."
This language seems to allow a 1st level character who chooses a Background and the Additional Lore Skill Feat to come to the following outcome as a result of only these two components of character creation:
-Training in the specific non-Lore skill from that Background
-Training in the same Lore skill from that Background, with enhanced proficiency "built-in" from Additional Lore
-Training in a third skill of choice (due to the overlap > bump explicitly stated in text)
The following threads disagree with this assertion, but, I offer new evidence to the contrary:
From August
From December
From April
So: What do folks think?
What about for Society play?
Which part of your post is supposed to be the new evidence? You said you have some but after the bullet point is just the threads you mentioned earlier?
Additional Lore specifically requires you to be trained in Lore to take it and specifically tells you to pick an 'additional' lore skill. So I disagree that you could do it with 'only' those two components. You'd need to acquire Additional Lore before your Background step, which means you'd need some Ancestry option that allows you to acquire Additional Lore without the prerequisite, or you'd need some way to acquire any Lore skill and then the Additional Lore feat.
Yeah, but I don't see anything in there that lets you get around the language in Additional Lore telling you to pick an 'additional' lore skill.
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Retraining
"You can also spend a week to retrain an initial trained skill you gained during character creation."
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Also retraining:
"When retraining, you generally can’t make choices you couldn’t make when you selected the original option."
If you choose a racial feat that makes you trained in Lore, then somehow get the Additional Lore skill feat at level 1 (like from being a rogue), then sure. Otherwise it's not really possible to do what you're suggesting at all.
Remember, the skill feat you get at level 1 is from your background; you don't get to just choose whatever you want.
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What envoy said (humans can also do it quite easily with their general feat from ancestry feat)
RAW aside, I would hope that most GMs would actually allow a player to use additional lore on their background lore. Being forced to invest valuable skill increases to something that is most likely thematic rather than mechanically optimal while they could gain other lores that increase fine is a bit rough.
Personally I would like to see the feat changed to giving scaling to an existing lore or giving a new lore and granting scaling to it. At least it would be consistent that way.
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What envoy said (humans can also do it quite easily with their general feat from ancestry feat)
RAW aside, I would hope that most GMs would actually allow a player to use additional lore on their background lore. Being forced to invest valuable skill increases to something that is most likely thematic rather than mechanically optimal while they could gain other lores that increase fine is a bit rough.
Personally I would like to see the feat changed to giving scaling to an existing lore or giving a new lore and granting scaling to it. At least it would be consistent that way.
Versatile Humans can do it if they choose Natural Skill for their ancestry feat and choose a lore skill, then Additional Lore from their bonus feat.
Skilled humans can do it if they choose a Lore as their skill, then General Training for their Ancestry feat.All other ancestries can do it by picking their relevant Lore ancestry feats and pick Rogue as their class.
As for the auto scaling issues, you don't need Additional Lore to pick up new Lore skills. I once built a character with so many trained skills that I was trained in everything, so I had to dump the rest into random lore skills I liked. Yes while leveling you only have a few boosts, but there are feats and dedications that also boost skills, so if you plan properly you will have plenty of your main skills boosted, and can afford to boost a lore skill.
Also note, Lore skills are just specialized sections of the standard skills used to Recall Knowledge. Anything you can do with Lore you can also do with a different skill. Add that to the fact that Lore DCs are usually lower, it's expected that you wouldn't have a lore skill maxed out.
But I do agree that not being able to apply Additional Lore to a lore you already know is an oversight and should be fixed.
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Apart from being awkward, it's been 2 erratas and still no official fix.The way additional lore can't be used to auto-scale an existing lore (only a new lore) is super awkward.
I really tried to understand how anyone could end up writing the feat in that strange way, but I simply cannot.
The obvious use case is to have a feat that turns on auto-scaling on an existing lore. If that feat is then deemed too weak, so it needs to hand out one more Trained lore, that's fine if the language allows the player to choose which lore (old or new) gets the auto-increase.
I'm sorry but that is such a low bar it's almost a null argument. There are a fair number of things that are clearly broken that have not been fixed.
But I do agree that not being able to apply Additional Lore to a lore you already know is an oversight and should be fixed.
Oversight is not how I would describe it, because the feat did what we all want in the playtest and then was changed for the final release:
"The breadth of your knowledge has increased to encompass a new field. Choose an additional Lore skill subcategory. You become trained in it. At 3rd, 7th, and 15th levels, you gain an additional skill increase you can apply only to Lore. When you select this feat, you gain the skill increases immediately for all listed levels at or below your current level.
SpecialYou can select this feat more than once, choosing a new subcategory of Lore each time and gaining the listed skill increases to that Lore.
So this seems like an intentional change, though I suppose they could have been going back and forth and forgot to change it back. I'm not sure why they made the change, but if I had to guess I would say someone probably found the playtest version confusing, clunky, or just too many words.
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So this seems like an intentional change, though I suppose they could have been going back and forth and forgot to change it back. I'm not sure why they made the change, but if I had to guess I would say someone probably found the playtest version confusing, clunky, or just too many words.
That one seems a bit dangerous ino, it lets you spread out lore increases over multiple lores rather than one, and lets you either do it multiple times, or only gain that ability once. I can see why it was changed to only one skill increasing (far harder to game)
Still a bad feeling to be able to take any useful enemy identifying lore and have it scale, but not have your themeatic background lore scale. Or have another player get that scaling bonus from additional lore and easily surpass you in something you had been trained in since the start and still want to be a part of your character.
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Yea, I wouldn't want it that way, I was thinking more like this:
Special You can select this feat more than once. Each time you must select a new subcategory of Lore to become trained in, and you choose an additional subcategory you are trained in to apply the skill increases to.
This would give the same net result, a free trained Lore skill and a Lore skill that auto scales, but allows for more options, like choosing a Lore gained from an archetype for example.
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That one seems a bit dangerous ino, it lets you spread out lore increases over multiple lores rather than one, and lets you either do it multiple times, or only gain that ability once. I can see why it was changed to only one skill increasing (far harder to game)
Dangerous seems like a big overstatement there.
You can also pick a more focused lore out of your additional lore skill if you really want to specialize. Like if you start with elf lore, but know you are pretty much just interacting with drow, or Ekujae, you might as well pick the more specialized focus and get the extra boost for the rolls that will mater.
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The real trick to additional lore, but one that I am not really sure how it is supposed to work RAW (but I would definitely allow as a GM) is that you can retrain it in the down time between going from one big location to another to have a very useful lore skill in the next place you go.
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My winter witch character picked up Additional Lore for Winter Witch Lore. Basically reflecting her knowledge of her fellow family members. Is it useful? No. Is it on point for the character? Very.
Plus I can still Earn Income with it.
To earn income from it you should to find some settlement which requires your lore skill, shouldn't you?
Like being in a desert and asking to make some golds put of lore: sailing.
That doesn't matter in PFS. If you have a Lore you can use it to Earn Income in between scenarios. In a home game, yes you would need to actually find a job that you can actually utilize that skill at.
The real trick to additional lore, but one that I am not really sure how it is supposed to work RAW (but I would definitely allow as a GM) is that you can retrain it in the down time between going from one big location to another to have a very useful lore skill in the next place you go.
That's like studying about a city you're about to visit, it kinda makes sense. What doesn't is that you suddenly forget all the info about the last city you were just at a week ago.