Helpful Steps has left me confused. I would appreciate your help.


Rules Discussion

Envoy's Alliance

Helpful Steps is a spell from Firebrands. https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1286

I have difficulty grasping what is going on with this spell. I have several questions:

1. How big is the staircase? Can Large creatures climb it?

2. What about Huge or Gargantuan creatures?

3. How many creatures can fit in horizontally?

4. What exactly happens if you destroy the staircase, or the ladder?

This spell is so bizarre, I have a tough time grokking it.


1-3. since there are no mentions, i would assume that it's like a normal everyday ladder, so i would say 5ft wide is probably the intent.

since it's 5ft wide, that means that large cretures can squeeze through, counting as difficult terrain, but huge+ creatures do not.

4.like a normal ladder, if you break it, the people on it, fall.

Envoy's Alliance

What about the staircase part?


Since the spell itself doesn't specify, it is left up to the players to determine details like that.

I would expect that the size of the staircase or ladder are based on the size category of the caster. So a medium size or small size caster is going to create a normal size staircase or ladder - one that medium or small characters are familiar with and can use effectively. If an NPC gargantuan sized dragon casts the spell, it would be sized for a gargantuan sized creature. Probably including having a larger maximum height. But since at that point it is a spell for an NPC rather than player characters, that would be fine.

Envoy's Alliance

Interesting. Do you think a medium caster can create a large staircase?


What are you trying to accomplish in the game? That is an important consideration when looking at a rules question like this.

The spell is intended for party mobility and location access. You cast it so that the party can get to a location that they couldn't have gotten to before - at least not without having to succeed at some climb or jump checks. Or using Fly or Air Walk spells. Also, unlike Fly or Air Walk, one casting will let the entire party gain access to the location.

So if the point is that one of the party members has an animal companion that is size large, then yeah. I don't see any reason why the large creature couldn't use the staircase that the tiny size Sprite Bard creates.

Being able to use the staircase could mean squeezing. Or it could mean that you can create the staircase wide enough to accommodate a large creature.

Envoy's Alliance

We can use it in combat too. For example, if I create a staircase and get to the top, could the enemies follow me?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Sure, no reason they couldn't. The stairs are still there for 10 minutes.

Envoy's Alliance

What if the enemy is large? Huge?


So what you are attempting to accomplish is to use a 1st level spell to create a location of total safety where the entire party can use ranged attacks to kill a large, and likely much higher level, enemy with no risk to the party. Yes?

I don't think any GM is going to allow that. Especially not in PFS.


breithauptclan wrote:

So what you are attempting to accomplish is to use a 1st level spell to create a location of total safety where the entire party can use ranged attacks to kill a large, and likely much higher level, enemy with no risk to the party. Yes?

I don't think any GM is going to allow that. Especially not in PFS.

Not so sure how safe it is actually.

It is only as sturdy as a normal, wooden, ladder.

If you go up, they can simply break it and everyone on top now gets a 40ft drop...


shroudb wrote:

Not so sure how safe it is actually.

It is only as sturdy as a normal, wooden, ladder.

If you go up, they can simply break it and everyone on top now gets a 40ft drop...

A staircase. Out in the middle of an empty white room. A staircase which, as normal for terrain and large objects, has no rules for being targeted with attacks and no force open or break rules either.


The rules around destroying items being poor doesn't mean they can't be destroyed. The spell even makes it clear it can be damaged as destroyed. So even though we don't have rules for sundering, I think it's fair to say a GM can come up with something fair to damage/destroy the ladder making it not a great tool to try to keep away from enemies.

Horizon Hunters

Saying you can't Strike an object just because the Strike action says to target a creature is the worst take on rules in the history of 2e. Any GM who says that I can't strike an object is immediately on my "Never play with this GM again" list.

Wood has stats, per the Material Statistics rules. If it's a spiral staircase, it would have a thick inner support, similar to a tree trunk, so I would say the stairs have Hardness 5, 20 HP and 10 BT. The AC is likely the Spell DC, but could be lower. A Ladder would be even weaker, at Hardness 3, 12 HP and BT 6.

A large creature with a heavy weapon could smash through that in one to two strikes, no problem.

Envoy's Alliance

breithauptclan wrote:

So what you are attempting to accomplish is to use a 1st level spell to create a location of total safety where the entire party can use ranged attacks to kill a large, and likely much higher level, enemy with no risk to the party. Yes?

I don't think any GM is going to allow that. Especially not in PFS.

Why wouldn't the GM allow that? Based on the earlier rulings you presented, it seems clear to me that it can be done. Do you think the spell works differently in combat? If so, why? What are the limitations on the spell? Can you ground them in the text of the spell.

Liberty's Edge

I'm proud to say I will never allow Strikes against Objects or Environments that don't already have a baked-in AC, the Strike Action and intended Weapon Damage Dice are simply not compatible with Item Hardness and HP, if integrated it turns every non-metal/magic environment into a wet paper sack for the purpose of any Character with a d6+ Weapon and a positive Strength score outside of combat.

Damaging objects and the environment is perfectly reasonable to do, with Weapons even, but that's an out-of-combat Activity to be done via the Athletics Skill and the application of Damage to the Weapon being used as well (unless they're using something with increased Hardness or built specifically to demolish buildings) but NOT via Weapon Damage Dice. If someone came to my table wanting to do that and threw a hissy fit I wouldn't break the game for them I'd agree that I'm a "never play with GM" to them and be happy to show them the door.

I SERIOUSLY think that everyone here who thinks it should be possible and easy to just use the Strike Action to damage and destroy all manner of objects and environments with normal Weapons has spent precisely 0 hours doing building demolition or even doing woodwork, you need special tools to do that stuff, trying to use a Weapon, even something like a Battleaxe, against a durable object like a wall or even something like a shipping pallet is more likely to injure YOU than meaningfully break the wall/object.


There's a huge difference between a wall and a wooden ladder.

While I agree that using the exact mechanics of strike and basic damage dice maybe isn't the best way because it has some odd ramifications, it also should have been addressed by Paizo on how to do, especially since they released weapons with the razing trait. The razing trait strongly implies that players can expect to use their weapon, using strike mechanics, and dealing weapon damage dice in terms of damage. And I can't say they're wrong for expecting that either.

Blame Paizo for not publishing better rules on this.

But at the end of the day, regardless of the exact method you allow as a GM, if you tell me I outright can't damage the wooden ladder I would be pissed and not play with you. If you tell me I deal a lot less damage then I expect I'm probably going to be annoyed, but how much will depend on the mechanics you set out.

But there's a big difference between Breit's (I hope tongue in cheek) suggestion that you can't actually damage the ladder, and not using the strike mechanics to do so.


Ghaar Drona wrote:
Why wouldn't the GM allow that?

Because it isn't entertaining and enjoyable for anyone. It doesn't make for a good story.

Go watch your favorite Marvel movie, or Harry Potter, or Star Wars, or ... and count how many times they had a 'let's shoot these fish in a barrel and then pat ourselves on the back for being heroes' scene.

It also sets up a player vs GM competitive mentality.

Any GM with good sense is going to shut down shenanigans like that immediately with an above the table discussion.

Any GM without good sense is going to come up with ways to thwart such a plan and get into an arms race with the troublesome player. In this specific case by using Force Open or general Athletics checks to topple the staircase, houseruling ways of attacking objects, or only using creatures that have ranged attacks or can fly.

Which is why I asked about your intentions in asking the question. Be up front about such things. Asking vague and generic questions in order to sneak in a quasi-official ruling in your favor on the rules forum that you then try to browbeat your GM into following is considered bad form.


Themetricsystem wrote:

I'm proud to say I will never allow Strikes against Objects or Environments that don't already have a baked-in AC, the Strike Action and intended Weapon Damage Dice are simply not compatible with Item Hardness and HP, if integrated it turns every non-metal/magic environment into a wet paper sack for the purpose of any Character with a d6+ Weapon and a positive Strength score outside of combat.

Damaging objects and the environment is perfectly reasonable to do, with Weapons even, but that's an out-of-combat Activity to be done via the Athletics Skill and the application of Damage to the Weapon being used as well (unless they're using something with increased Hardness or built specifically to demolish buildings) but NOT via Weapon Damage Dice. If someone came to my table wanting to do that and threw a hissy fit I wouldn't break the game for them I'd agree that I'm a "never play with GM" to them and be happy to show them the door.

I SERIOUSLY think that everyone here who thinks it should be possible and easy to just use the Strike Action to damage and destroy all manner of objects and environments with normal Weapons has spent precisely 0 hours doing building demolition or even doing woodwork, you need special tools to do that stuff, trying to use a Weapon, even something like a Battleaxe, against a durable object like a wall or even something like a shipping pallet is more likely to injure YOU than meaningfully break the wall/object.

i mean... bring down a greatsword on a propped up ladder and see it being smashed.

stone walls and such, on average, will take 0 damage from a normal swing of a sword either way the way hardness work. And on the flipside, flimsy wooden walls can be broken by simply punching holes into them.

In my games, it's not even a Strike action, so I'm not violating any rules. Attacking an immovable, unattended object goes straight up to the damage, hence, not a "Strike".

Using your logic, a glass window is unbreakable if someone is chucking stones at it, since that is a also an attack action you could easily do during a combat round.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Ghaar Drona wrote:
What if the enemy is large? Huge?

Not defined in the spell. Whatever the GM rules stands. Maybe they can walk right up. Maybe they need to balance. Maybe they need to climb. Maybe they're so massive it can't hold them at all in any way and they can collapse it.

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