In another thread, bugleyman commented about WAR's artwork being a bit over the top. This is at least partly in response to that.
I agree a lot of his artwork is a bit over the top. I still like it. It does bring up a question I've had in mind for awhile: Amiri got her sword from a Frost Giant she killed. I've seen it described, in her iconic character sheet for example, as a "Large Bastard Sword". Sure, it's a bastard sword for her but it looks to me, from Reynolds' art, like a short sword from the viewpoint of the Frost Giant who originally wielded it. What do y'all say?
Maybe bugleyman doesn't realize it's supposed to be twice as long and twice as thick because it's from Frost Giants that are twice as tall (and often more; they're tall for a Large-size creature).
Temperans, that's PF1 talk, though the sword looks much the same, so maybe PF1 oddness simply carried over?
Even then the pictured length is iffy unless Amiri is tall (and how exactly does she sheathe it?). Yet yep, either way her sword seems more proportioned like a short sword; it's kinda stubby. Though maybe there are long, stubby swords out there best described mechanically as bastard swords due to their weight? That would explain why it wasn't an even longer greatsword I guess (which would double her height or so!), and why she needs to swing it for slashing damage only because it's too wide and blunt for poking people. :-)
Stepping back from reality and into artistry, that's about as big as it could be drawn without it outweighing her. She's a thin lass.
Sadly, 'oversize' weapons and carrying them tends to get more handwaven than some might like. I'm toying with a kobold fighter who carries a halberd ... or a three-foot creature carrying a seven-foot polearm. I just don't know any other way of having it shown either.
ISTR reading somewhere that Amiri is six feet tall.
The other thing that bothers me is the damage. Frost Giants in the Bestiary aren't armed with short swords or bastard swords, they have a greataxe that does 2d12+12 damage. This is quite a bit more than the "normal" 1d12. One would expect a Frost Giant wielding a short sword to do something like 2d6+6, or 2d8+6 with a bastard sword (one handed, 2d12+6 two handed).
According to Herolab Amiri does 1d12+4 with her "Large Bastard Sword", whether one-handed or two-handed. I expect that's an error.
If we just treat it as equivalent to a medium sized bastard sword, she should do 1d8+4 one handed or 1d12+4 two handed. Plus two more when raging.
pf2 has no mechanical difference between different sized weapons
for all matters and purposes amiris sword is a d12 greatsword
if it would be a 'large bastard sword' mechanically it should still be d8 one handed and d12 two handed
I see some value in making all weapons a single die and setting up a progression for adding additional dice. This also means weapon sizes are mostly irrelevant. Amiri has a big sword. I think it meets the reasonable definition of being a big sword. The physical dimensions for weapons would probably not maintain the same proportion as they embiggened. Nevermind the absurd weight, what is she actually going to do with a twelve foot length of I beam? Is it closer in proportion to a large shortsword? Maybe some manner of large broadsword? It looks like a necessary compromise to me. Still absurdly large to fit the trope or fantasy but with just enough artistic license reigning it in so it fits in the picture.
Until a society of actual large warriors can lend me insight into what they consider a two-handed great weapon, I am going to have to assume that blade length does not just double. The minimum size of weapon a large creature might be comfortable with will probably see more growth than the maximum size. It is not like the weapon gains the reach trait from being large. Perhaps the greatest difference is in the handle and the blade just thickens a bit to account for the raised bulk.
I will agree that continuing to call it a Bastard Sword is misleading if it has no one handed profile. May as well give her a Large Longsword and a shield, really let her show off.
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Guts from Berserk and Cloud Strife say, "heeeey neeeerds, we heard you want to talk realism in your game of pretending to be an elf?"
In another thread, bugleyman commented about WAR's artwork being a bit over the top.
Haters gonna hate.
Is there a particular reason the necropost is almost word-for-word Qaianna's post earlier in the thread, aside from seemingly having been run through a thesaurus? Seems like bot behavior to me.
Same with the only other post that they have ever made on these forums.
Pity there isn't a "suspected bot," in the Flag menu.
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Whatever Amiri's Sword is in-game, it's not a bastard sword in the real world. I can't imagine that size and weight of sword being useful in a real human vs human sword fight. But what would it be good for in a fantasy setting? Maybe hunting mammoths, giants, dragons, and other giant-sized creatures.
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Pity there isn't a "suspected bot," in the Flag menu.
Well, bot activity is sorta spam, right?
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By the rules, as a Giant Instinct Barbarian you can be a 2.5 foot tall gnome wielding a polearm sized for a giant without penalty.
If you don't think this is cool or reasonable, then just don't play that character.
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Whatever Amiri's Sword is in-game, it's not a bastard sword in the real world. I can't imagine that size and weight of sword being useful in a real human vs human sword fight. But what would it be good for in a fantasy setting? Maybe hunting mammoths, giants, dragons, and other giant-sized creatures.I mean its a bastard sword for giants. She takes a penalty to use it properly in PF1 and PF2 handles it weirdly. Saying "this doesn't make sense for humans" is not saying much, its also why oversized weapons used to give a -2 penalty to attack per size category.
There are no real swords that has that wide of a blade. The closest thing to the blade proportions of Amiri's Sword is a knife or dagger. A bastard sword with a blade that wide would need to be at least twice as long as Amiri's Sword. A possible explanation is that Amiri's Sword is a large bastard sword with a broken blade. The tip shape also suggests the blade is broken. I think that's great flavor for Amiri's character.
Several people on youtube have made giant swords similar to Amiri's Sword that weigh from 48 to 70 pounds. These giant swords can split logs in half like an axe without a scratch to the blade. So by looking at the damage on Amiri's Sword, it would suggest the blade is thinner, so Amiri's Sword might be closer to 24 to 30 pounds, still five or six times the weight of a real human-size bastard sword.
One of the things that make swords one of the most popular weapons in the middle ages is that it's both good at attacking and defending. A weapon like Amiri's Sword is too awkward and heavy to defend with. This is one of the reasons I said it's not good in a real human vs. human sword fights. Bastard swords were designed for people fighting in plate armor against people in plate armor. The heavier blade was needed to damage plate armor, and wearing plater armor let you give up using a shied so you could use a sword two-handed. Also, someone wearing plate armor will not want to carry a 24 to 30 pound weapon around a battlefield. Amiri doesn't wear plate armor, so the weight is not as much as a problem.
Another issue that makes a giant sword not useful in a big battle or dueling with humans is they frequently get stuck in whatever it hits, and even when not stuck in something, the recovery time to lift the weapon back up to strike is slow. Amiri's Sword has the clumsy condition that fits this and the heavyweight. In the giant sword videos, the only strike they seem to be able to do is an overhead chop like an axe.
So it's not a great weapon for a real medieval battlefield. In the hands of a human, It functions more like a large double-bladed axe than a bastard sword. But it's a cool weapon for Amiri in a fantasy setting. In-game calling it a large bastard sword that is clumsy to use works fine for the game.
As someone who has owned real plate armor and bastard swords and fought with them, I do prefer realistic equipment in my games, but I'm not against weapons like Amiri's Sword. I just like to figure out how they would really work. I remember the dire flail first showed up in D&D. I thought it was the dumbest weapon I had ever seen until I built one to test. I'd love to build and test Amiri's Sword, but I no longer have a roommate that is a sword smith.
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Amiri is also more of a superhuman. If nothing else, even at first level she's the strongest it is possible to be--and then she gets stronger. That helps.
Her abilities aren't overtly supernatural at first level, but they have the potential to be.
Whatever Amiri's Sword is in-game, it's not a bastard sword in the real world. I can't imagine that size and weight of sword being useful in a real human vs human sword fight. But what would it be good for in a fantasy setting? Maybe hunting mammoths, giants, dragons, and other giant-sized creatures.I mean its a bastard sword for giants. She takes a penalty to use it properly in PF1 and PF2 handles it weirdly. Saying "this doesn't make sense for humans" is not saying much, its also why oversized weapons used to give a -2 penalty to attack per size category.
In PF2 it makes you Clumsy. That reduces, among other things, your AC. It has no benefits at all unless you have a specific special ability, and then it grants a bonus to damage. Conditionally.
What's odd about it?
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I mean my issue, and why I commented, is that you are talking about it in a human vs human in a medieval setting. This is not that. Amiri is a human fighting giants, dragons, large beasts, etc. and her weapon is that of a giant that she killed.
It is not a weapon made for humans to fight humans. It is a weapon made by giants to fight giants and she is wielding it because "blood for gorum!".
As for weight the rule is to double the weight (PF1e) or the bulk (PF2e). So a large bastard sword would weight 12 lbs (PF1e) or 2 bulk (PF2e).
It's all good. I was on a bit of a rant after you said my first comment wasn't saying much, so I said too much. In the end where both saying it's a good weapon for Amiri to fight giants with. I still really like my idea of having it have a broken blade to explain its shape, at least for me.
I mostly play Starfinder but recently started playing PF2e as well, so not as familiar with buying weapons in PF2e yet. Can anyone buy an oversized weapon like Amiri's Sword? Would it cost the same as a normal size sword?
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In another thread, bugleyman commented about WAR's artwork being a bit over the top.Haters gonna hate.
Ah yes, because as everyone knows, expressing an opinion that differs from yours makes one a "hater."
/rolleyes
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I mean my issue, and why I commented, is that you are talking about it in a human vs human in a medieval setting. This is not that. Amiri is a human fighting giants, dragons, large beasts, etc. and her weapon is that of a giant that she killed.
It is not a weapon made for humans to fight humans. It is a weapon made by giants to fight giants and she is wielding it because "blood for gorum!".
As for weight the rule is to double the weight (PF1e) or the bulk (PF2e). So a large bastard sword would weight 12 lbs (PF1e) or 2 bulk (PF2e).
It's all good. I was on a bit of a rant after you said my first comment wasn't saying much, so I said too much. In the end where both saying it's a good weapon for Amiri to fight giants with. I still really like my idea of having it have a broken blade to explain its shape, at least for me.
I mostly play Starfinder but recently started playing PF2e as well, so not as familiar with buying weapons in PF2e yet. Can anyone buy an oversized weapon like Amiri's Sword? Would it cost the same as a normal size sword?
Yes people can buy a larger weapon, it costs twice as much for each size category.
Thanks.
I'm now wondering how that applies to organized play. Under the link you posted, it says:
"The rules for items of different sizes tend to come into play when the characters defeat a big creature that has gear, since in most cases, the only creatures of other sizes are creatures under the GM’s control."
Since a large sword is not even a listed item, it might fall outside of common or uncommon items. Might work if your character comes from some place where giants are common.
The clumsy part makes sense. The not dealing more damage unless you have a specific ability is not. Hence weirdly. (Also that extra damage being a fixed number, but that one is preference)Amiri is also more of a superhuman. If nothing else, even at first level she's the strongest it is possible to be--and then she gets stronger. That helps.
Her abilities aren't overtly supernatural at first level, but they have the potential to be.
Whatever Amiri's Sword is in-game, it's not a bastard sword in the real world. I can't imagine that size and weight of sword being useful in a real human vs human sword fight. But what would it be good for in a fantasy setting? Maybe hunting mammoths, giants, dragons, and other giant-sized creatures.I mean its a bastard sword for giants. She takes a penalty to use it properly in PF1 and PF2 handles it weirdly. Saying "this doesn't make sense for humans" is not saying much, its also why oversized weapons used to give a -2 penalty to attack per size category.In PF2 it makes you Clumsy. That reduces, among other things, your AC. It has no benefits at all unless you have a specific special ability, and then it grants a bonus to damage. Conditionally.
What's odd about it?
The 'not dealing more damage' part makes a certain sense
of course something that is bigger and weightier leaves more *potential* for damagebut it is also harder to effectively use
so consider it dealing no additional damage outside of the rage as 'making a compromise to hit the enemy properly without actually losing damage'
losing on a bit damage will probably feel better then having a reduced attack roll (and is certainly better for the system math)
The 'not dealing more damage' part makes a certain sense
I can accept it is good for game balance and it avoids a not terribly exciting scene from 3.5; Monkey Grip and Powerful Build had their time in the sun and it has passed. It is also a very restrictive decision that deliberately lays bricks in front of an otherwise reasonable progression.
A shortsword does more damage than a dagger. A longsword does more damage than a shortsword. It is easy to point at the extreme example of a seventy pound iron slab and say the damage is compromised because it is unwieldy. This willfully overlooks the established trend between weapon size and corresponding damage die. The middle ground got thrown out with the extremes.
Again, I accept the decision is made for gameplay purposes. A system of scaling strength requirements and alternate weapon sizes matched to an accuracy/damage tradeoff sounds like good fun. But P2e is also good fun and handwaves all that stuff in favor of other stuff instead. I do think it puts the Giant Instinct Barbarian in an unusual spot. Really calls attention to a narrow section of design which has otherwise been deliberately avoided. Not sure if there is a way to reconcile that without the oversized weapon compromise feeling tacky.
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If you watch any of the videos of people using giant swords, it's hard not to do massive damage if they hit but they are hard to aim, and slow to use. So maybe giving them more damage but requiring using 2 actions for a strike. Maybe even require being in rage to get the extra damage.
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What I'd like to see is some to-scale drawings of what a dagger, a shortsword, a longsword, and a bastard sword (and maybe a greatsword) sized for a Frost Giant look like compared to Amiri herself. :-)
What I'd like to see is some to-scale drawings of what a dagger, a shortsword, a longsword, and a bastard sword (and maybe a greatsword) sized for a Frost Giant look like compared to Amiri herself. :-)
Yes, please! Lets get some more artwork up in here. For science.
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What I'd like to see is some to-scale drawings of what a dagger, a shortsword, a longsword, and a bastard sword (and maybe a greatsword) sized for a Frost Giant look like compared to Amiri herself. :-)
Frost giants are 15 feet tall. A bastard sword is around 4 feet long, so 2/3 the height of a 6 for a person. So 10 feet long for a frost giant's sword. This works for my idea that Amiri's sword is a huge broken sword missing 5 or 6 feet of the blade to explain its extra width for a blade the length of Amiri's sword.