If a creature with regeneration and dying 3 becomes doomed 1, does it die?
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A creature with regeneration has additional benefits. Its dying condition can't increase to a value that would kill it
If a creature with regeneration and dying 3 becomes doomed 1, does it die?
That is some serious shenanigans and it wouldn't fly at my table. No, you can't bypass the clear intent that Regeneration prevents a creature from dying by using a loophole in the wording of the rules.
I don't negotiate with Devils ;P
It's a good question.
RAW: Yes
RAI: Maybe
Balance: I don't know how difficult or effective is put a doomed state in a creature with regeneration. My first view is that is easier to use the regeneration Deactivate weakness to kill it but Doomed may allow any kind of damage to kill it allowing other characters to kill it too. So I'm not sure of balance effects behind this.
It's a good question.
RAW: Yes
Oh absolutely.
It is very clearly what the rule actually says.
Just like it is very clearly RAW that you can't hit a Ghost or other Incorporeal creature with a +1 Striking Ghost Touch greatsword because the Strike is a strength based check.
I thought of this question because CRB and Bestiary use different wording for regen. CRB says the creature can't reach the dying value that kills it. Bestiary just says the creature can't go above dying 3. So I wondered, what if the dying value that kills it is suddenly something else? The doomed condition explicitly mentions that your soul is being gripped, so it makes sense that it might overcome regen.
It's a good question.
RAW: Yes
Oh absolutely.
It is very clearly what the rule actually says.
Just like it is very clearly RAW that you can't hit a Ghost or other Incorporeal creature with a +1 Striking Ghost Touch greatsword because the Strike is a strength based check.
But if it you use a Short Sword with your Dex it's fine! :P
Also the Ghosts can use the +1 Striking Ghost Touch greatsword against you without problem! kkkkkI thought of this question because CRB and Bestiary use different wording for regen. CRB says the creature can't reach the dying value that kills it. Bestiary just says the creature can't go above dying 3. So I wondered, what if the dying value that kills it is suddenly something else? The doomed condition explicitly mentions that your soul is being gripped, so it makes sense that it might overcome regen.
So probably the CRB version is the correct. The dying 3 of Bestiary is just a simplification and all this don't matter you simply don't improve the dying condition to a die state. Yet this can become very strange if you doomed up to 3! So you cannot enter into dying state (only unconscious)?
It's a good question.
RAW: Yes
Oh absolutely.
It is very clearly what the rule actually says.
Just like it is very clearly RAW that you can't hit a Ghost or other Incorporeal creature with a +1 Striking Ghost Touch greatsword because the Strike is a strength based check.
But if it you use a Short Sword with your Dex it's fine! :P
Also the Ghosts can use the +1 Striking Ghost Touch greatsword against you without problem! kkkkk
Yup. So when fighting a Troll without any fire or acid damage available, be sure to avoid applying the Doomed condition too early. You have to wait until they actually get to Dying 2 first. Because if you hit them with the Doomed 1 first, then they won't increase to Dying 2 and actually die - they will stay at Dying 1.
But if you wait until they get to Dying 2 (because they only die at Dying 3), and then hit them with Doomed 1, then they die since they are already at Dying 2.
*facepalm*
The other one that this reminds me of is how if you take certain archetype feats that give focus spells in a different order you can end up with a different number of focus points in your focus pool. But you can use retraining to change the order that you get the feats in to correct that.
On the other hand, its possible that giving the dying 3 creature doomed 1 doesn't count as the creature "reaching" reaching the maximum dying value. If anything, it's the maximum dying value that has reached the current dying value.
I can think into 2 valid interpretations. One more focused in Regeneration the other more focused in Doomed:
Regeneration Focused:
Probably a reasonable GM will interpret and just ignore the Doomed condition while Regeneration is active but once the Regeneration is disable if the Dying condition + Doomed is greater than 3 the creature dies. This is more reasonable interpretation of the rules interactions IMO.
Doomed Focused:
If the creature with Doomed condition reach Dying 4 - Doomed it's instantly dies independently of the Regeneration effect.
Why I can interpret in this way. Because Doomed 4 = instant kill no matter how damage the creature is:
Your life is ebbing away, bringing you ever closer to death. Some powerful spells and evil creatures can inflict the doomed condition on you. Doomed always includes a value. The maximum dying value at which you die is reduced by your doomed value. For example, if you were doomed 1, you would die upon reaching dying 3 instead of dying 4. If your maximum dying value is ever reduced to 0, you instantly die. When you die, you’re no longer doomed.
Your doomed value decreases by 1 each time you get a full night’s rest.
If a creature with regeneration and dying 3 becomes doomed 1, does it die?
Technically, yes. But you would have to apply the Doomed condition after it has reached Dying 3, since the Regeneration rules state that their Dying condition cannot increase to a value that can kill them. Applying the Doomed condition isn't increasing a Dying condition value, it's reducing a Dying value threshold that is beyond what their Regeneration would cover, so strict RAW, this would work, as long as the Dying value is one below from what they would normally die at.
RAI, I'm not so convinced, largely because the intent seems to be that they can't simply die from the Dying condition. There's arguments that the Doomed condition doesn't count as dying from the Dying condition, but considering that it alters the value that you would normally die from the Dying condition (not unlike the Wounded condition), the idea that the Doomed condition can circumvent this is flimsy, compared to a Death effect that Regeneration specifically says it doesn't work against.
At the end of the day, it's a GM call, and it can go either way. The RAW is specific on how it can come to pass, and the RAI makes it clear that unless you become Doomed 4 (or if your Doomed value equals your maximum Dying value), the Doomed condition can't reasonably kill you via Regeneration.
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Doomed Focused:
If the creature with Doomed condition reach Dying 4 - Doomed it's instantly dies independently of the Regeneration effect.Why I can interpret in this way. Because Doomed 4 = instant kill no matter how damage the creature is:
The creature would never reach Dying 4 though.
A creature with regeneration has additional benefits. Its dying condition can't increase to a value that would kill it (this stops most creatures from going beyond dying 3) as long as its regeneration is active.
And that is a general rule in the CRB - not a specific rule for creatures.
And if Doomed 1 is applied first, then the creature would instead die at Dying 3 and so would never go beyond Dying 2. Because its dying condition can't increase to a value that would kill it.
If you somehow applied Doomed 4, then it could be argued that it would kill the creature outright because of the specific rule in Doomed that says if you would die at Dying 0 that you die instantly.
But it's not increased to a value that can kill it, it retroactively reaches that value by reducing the total value needed for it to be considered dead by the Dying condition.
Now, if the entry said that it can never reach a value that would cause it to die, that would make more sense (though this would also override the Doomed specific rule), and I have a feeling that's the intent, but the RAW is clear that adding the Doomed condition doesn't increase the Dying value, it implements a new limit on the Dying condition, so saying that the Doomed condition counts as increasing the Dying condition the creature has to a value that would kill it just doesn't add up.
RAW seems pretty clear about it killing them, but I definitely wouldn't allow it. It seems pretty clear to me that it's just inaccurate wording since the specific interaction resulting from it is so weird and counterintuitive, especially with the way the order matters. I also seem to recall some other shenanigans pointed out somewhere else about creatures at 0 hp and the language around 'increasing' or 'decreasing', but I don't remember what that was about.
That said, I would allow the creature to be killed by increasing its doomed value to its dying threshold. It just 'feels right' to me.