How does the Darkness spell interact with light coming from outside, if that light is created by a high-level spell?
Darkness spell says "Light does not enter the area" and by this point, it makes no distinction between magical and non-magical light. So as I see it, the light from outside does not enter the area of Darkness even if it is created by a higher level-spell.
It's true that in the following sentences the description of Darkness talks about suppressing non-magical light sources in its area, and it also says "This also suppresses magical light of your darkness spell's level or lower.", but I understand the latter as talking about suppressing low-level magical light effects in the area of Darkness. As I see it, it does not alter how the spell interacts with the light coming from outside.
To sum up, let's consider an object with a Light cantrip cast on it.
- If the object is outside the area of Darkness, then it glows as per description of the Light cantrip, but its light does not enter the area of Darkness, regardless of the level of the Light cantrip.
- If the object is inside the area of Darkness, but the Light cantrip is of lower or equal level than the level of Darkness, then the Light cantrip is suppressed.
- If the object is inside the area of Darkness, but the Light cantrip is of higher level than the level of Darkness, then the Light cantrip works normally, and it illuminates at least a portion of the area inside the Darkness, as per the description of Light cantrip.
Is this correct?
From a practical standpoint in order to get the game running in a way that seems fair - I would probably have the two effects run a Counteract check to see which effect takes priority over the shared area.
From a practical standpoint in order to get the game running in a way that seems fair - I would probably have the two effects run a Counteract check to see which effect takes priority over the shared area.
As I understand it, spells with Light trait can counteract spells with Darkness trait, but only if they target the darkness magic directly or say that they counteract magical darkness in their description.
Light cantrip targets an object, not an area, nor a spell effect, and it does not say it can counteract magical darkness. Besides, successful counteracting means ending the spell, not just suppressing it on some area. I don't think that rules allow for what you are suggesting, but it could be a fair home rule.
Move the Light cantrip of equal spell level to the Darkness's spell level to the middle situation (is suppressed) and you're good. Darkness suppresses magical light of its (Darkness's) spell level or lower. The only situation the Light cantrip is not suppressed while in Darkness's area is if its spell level is higher than the Darkness's spell level
Right, if the levels are equal, the Darkness will still suppress Light. I've corrected the original post.
Light cantrip targets an object, not an area, and it does not say it can counteract magical darkness, so I don't think that rules allow for what you are suggesting.
Right. If the source of the Light spell is in the area of the Darkness spell, then Darkness has its own rules for which one wins.
But if the source of the Light spell is outside the area of the Darkness spell and all they have is an overlapping area, I would have the two effects run a counteract check - not to dispel the Light or Darkness spell entirely, just to decide which of the two effects actually happens in that shared area.
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Light cantrip targets an object, not an area, and it does not say it can counteract magical darkness, so I don't think that rules allow for what you are suggesting.Right. If the source of the Light spell is in the area of the Darkness spell, then Darkness has its own rules for which one wins.
But if the source of the Light spell is outside the area of the Darkness spell and all they have is an overlapping area, I would have the two effects run a counteract check - not to dispel the Light or Darkness spell entirely, just to decide which of the two effects actually happens in that shared area.
Yeah, it can be a fair home rule, but I don't think it is supported by rules as written.
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Interesting, yeah, the light trait says it only counteracts the darkness if it actually targets the darkness, or if your effect specifically says so.
Searing Light for example specifically says that it tries to counteract magical darkness if it passes through it. So does Sunburst. But the Light spell doesn't. Neither does Dancing Lights or Faerie Fire.
Now, the most common source of magical darkness is the Darkness spell, and that targets an area. While the Light cantrip targets an object. So it's not possible to directly target Darkness with a Light cantrip.
If your Light cantrip is stronger than the Darkness spell, then sure it wins. But on a tie or worse the Darkness wins. No counteract.
I didn't notice that before. I'd heard people complain that they thought it felt cheap that you could just try over and over to counteract darkness with a cantrip. But I guess you actually can't.
If your Light cantrip is stronger than the Darkness spell, then sure it wins. But on a tie or worse the Darkness wins. No counteract.
The only situation I'm hesitant is when a stronger Light shines from outside. Because if it's inside then it's clear that it won't be suppressed and it will illuminate the area inside. But if it's outside, then it seems to me that the Darkness spell will still stop the light from entering, without actually suppressing or counteracting the light source.
Can light itself be magical? Or only the source of the light?
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Light cantrip targets an object, not an area, and it does not say it can counteract magical darkness, so I don't think that rules allow for what you are suggesting.Right. If the source of the Light spell is in the area of the Darkness spell, then Darkness has its own rules for which one wins.
But if the source of the Light spell is outside the area of the Darkness spell and all they have is an overlapping area, I would have the two effects run a counteract check - not to dispel the Light or Darkness spell entirely, just to decide which of the two effects actually happens in that shared area.
As I understand it, counteracting targets differently than the normal targeting of a spell. If you use a counterspell effect, you target the spell regardless of what that spell can target.
If a light cantrip used to counteract darkness, you don't have to target the object as you could target the darkness effect. Nothing in counteracting indicates the target of a spell has anything to do with counteracting.
The Light trait says a light effect can counteract darkness regardless of what it targets. The inclusion of automatic counteract with the normal for spells like searing light or sunburst allows them to counteract darkness while having their normal effect whereas a light cantrip has to target the darkness effect.
Interesting, yeah, the light trait says it only counteracts the darkness if it actually targets the darkness, or if your effect specifically says so.
Searing Light for example specifically says that it tries to counteract magical darkness if it passes through it. So does Sunburst. But the Light spell doesn't. Neither does Dancing Lights or Faerie Fire.
Now, the most common source of magical darkness is the Darkness spell, and that targets an area. While the Light cantrip targets an object. So it's not possible to directly target Darkness with a Light cantrip.
If your Light cantrip is stronger than the Darkness spell, then sure it wins. But on a tie or worse the Darkness wins. No counteract.
I didn't notice that before. I'd heard people complain that they thought it felt cheap that you could just try over and over to counteract darkness with a cantrip. But I guess you actually can't.
Yes, a light cantrip can. Any spell with the Light trait can target a darkness effect regardless of what it comes from. The light trait is specific in what it does.
As I understand it, counteracting targets differently than the normal targeting of a spell. If you use a counterspell effect, you target the spell regardless of what that spell can target.
I'm asking about the interaction of two effects, light and darkness, cast normally. Counterspell is a special reaction that requires a feat to use. If you Counterspell, you don't actually Cast A Spell, you just expend a spell slot, so it does in fact ignore many requirements present when you Cast A Spell. Whether spells with light trait can always be used to counterspell spells with darkness trait is another question.
If a light cantrip used to counteract darkness, you don't have to target the object as you could target the darkness effect. Nothing in counteracting indicates the target of a spell has anything to do with counteracting.
It is in the description of Light trait: "You must usually target darkness magic with your light magic directly to counteract the darkness, but some light spells automatically attempt to counteract darkness." The Light cantrip cannot be targeted directly at darkness, and it says nothing about doing it automatically, so it cannot be used to counteract darkness.
The Light trait says a light effect can counteract darkness regardless of what it targets.
That is just false. As I quoted above, the light trait explicitly says you usually must target darkness magic to counteract it.
Yes, a light cantrip can. Any spell with the Light trait can target a darkness effect regardless of what it comes from. The light trait is specific in what it does.
The light trait says no such thing. It doesn't allow the spells with this trait to target anything else than listed in the particular spell's description.
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If a light cantrip used to counteract darkness, you don't have to target the object as you could target the darkness effect. Nothing in counteracting indicates the target of a spell has anything to do with counteracting.It is in the description of Light trait: "You must usually target darkness magic with your light magic directly to counteract the darkness, but some light spells automatically attempt to counteract darkness." The Light cantrip cannot be targeted directly at darkness, and it says nothing about doing it automatically, so it cannot be used to counteract darkness.
That is not what it says. You can use any spell with the Light trait to counteract a darkness effect which does not require anything but a darkness effect be in place.
You don't have to target the caster. You don't have to target the object. You don't have to counterspell a spell. You just have to use the Light trait spell and say, "I counteract the darkness effect." Your light cantrip targets the darkness effect.
That is how counteracting works.
Counterspell is not automatic which is why I used it as an example. You expend a spell of the same kind, then attempt to counteract the other spell of the same kind. Normally you can't do this...period.
Counteract is a completely separate roll and effect that targets only what something allows it to counteract.
The Counterspell feat allows you to use to a spell to counter another spell.
Just as the Light trait allows you to use any spell with the Light trait to counteract any darkness effect regardless of what it normally targets.
There is nothing more to be read into it. It does exactly what the Light trait says in plain language which means it can counteract a darkness effect regardless of what it's original use is for.
That is just false. As I quoted above, the light trait explicitly says you usually must target darkness magic to counteract it.
No. It says the darkness effect regardless of what creates it. It does not say what generates the darkness or any other limiter. It says you must counteract the darkness effect which is the darkness itself.
The light trait says no such thing. It doesn't allow the spells with this trait to target anything else than listed in the particular spell's description.
It says exactly that. The game is explained as following the plain language of a specific rule. You are adding that it would need to target the object generating the darkness. That is not part of the Light trait.
You are attempting to add limitations on the light trait that do not exist. The Light trait is one of the clearest written traits I've seen.
A regular Light cantrip can be used to counteract any darkness effect regardless of what generates and there is no real targeting other than it must be used on the darkness effect.
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Light effects overcome non-magical darkness in the area, and can counteract magical darkness. You must usually target darkness magic with your light magic directly to counteract the darkness, but some light spells automatically attempt to counteract darkness.
"Target darkness magic" is the exact wording.
Nowhere does it say what generates the darkness, the caster using it, or any other target of the spell.
The darkness magic is the darkness itself. The magically generated darkness.
If your DM wants to force you to counteract the object or some other limiter that is up to them. The Light trait as written just requires targeting the darkness magic, not what generates it or casts it. Just the magical darkness itself.
Your obviously arguing this point for some tactic you plan to argue with the DM I imagine. Good luck to them I guess.
I guess you could ask how PFS adjudicates as they are about as close to an official answer as you will get.
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That is not what it says.If a light cantrip used to counteract darkness, you don't have to target the object as you could target the darkness effect. Nothing in counteracting indicates the target of a spell has anything to do with counteracting.It is in the description of Light trait: "You must usually target darkness magic with your light magic directly to counteract the darkness, but some light spells automatically attempt to counteract darkness." The Light cantrip cannot be targeted directly at darkness, and it says nothing about doing it automatically, so it cannot be used to counteract darkness.
Yes it is. That is exactly what it says. He quoted the rule directly. The Light trait, and the targeting line of the Light Cantrip.
You really need to stop stating your personal rulings on things as though they are the only possible valid interpretation. Especially in the face of contradicting information or the pointing out of ambiguities in the language.
OTOH, afaik all counterspell-themed feats require the expense of resources, namely a spell from a spell slot, so cantrips would not qualify for them and probably should not be allowed to directly counteract Darkness even if you allow light spells to target magical darkness
Counterpoint: removing all of the precise senses of one side of a combat has a much more disruptive effect on the balance of an encounter than negating a slotted spell with a cantrip does.
We don't agree, Deriven, but I'm not going to discuss counteracting any longer, that wasn't my original problem anyway. I just wanted to check what people of the community think on how the area of Darkness is affected by an object affected by a strong Light cantrip. There's no counterspelling, no using one spell to counteract another, just two spells cast in a basic manner.
And my understanding is: not at all. Regardless of the strength of outside light sources, the area of Darkness remains dark. It can only be illuminated by a Light cantrip if the object affected by the cantrip is brought inside (and the Light is of high enough level).
By the way, from this understanding comes a surprising conclusion: if you're inside the area of Darkness, then no matter how strong the light sources are and where they are, you won't be able to see anything outside the area, as no light from the outside can get inside. You'd need other senses, like darkvision.
Just FYI, I want to point out I can't find a single light spell on AoN with a target line of "magical darkness" or the like.
True, but the light trait can be added to a spell with metamagic, for example with the Scintillating Spell. It would still need to be a spell that can affect other magical effects. Alternatively, it can be argued that if the spell with the light trait affects the same target or area as the spell with the darkness trait then one is targeted directly at another. I wouldn't say so about the Light cantrip (targeted at an object) and Darkness spell (targeted at an area) though.
Counterpoint: removing all of the precise senses of one side of a combat has a much more disruptive effect on the balance of an encounter than negating a slotted spell with a cantrip does.
You know, I think that changing the balance of the encounter by modifying the conditions on the battlefield is the intended purpose of all battlefield control spells. It's no bug, it's a feature.
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OTOH, afaik all counterspell-themed feats require the expense of resources, namely a spell from a spell slot, so cantrips would not qualify for them and probably should not be allowed to directly counteract Darkness even if you allow light spells to target magical darknessCounterpoint: removing all of the precise senses of one side of a combat has a much more disruptive effect on the balance of an encounter than negating a slotted spell with a cantrip does.
Darkness is substantially weaker than it was previously. Darkvision sees right through it and is easy to acquire. Even the level 4 version only creates a concealed effect against Darkvision, which is easy to acquire.
Two, there is no spell stating it can target magical darkness. Counteract effects operate outside the normal targeting rules with rule modifiers like Counteract or a Light trait superseding the normal targeting. It's just an ability of the light trait or any spell with the light trait. That is why the light cantrip can be used against the nebulous idea of darkness magic which some of you are arguing is the "object the darkness is cast on" versus the magical darkness the object generates. I think it is clearly the magical darkness itself, while others want to have to target the source of the magical darkness.
Either way just make sure to take darkvision with every character as PF2 encourages to ensure darkness (magical or otherwise) doesn't become a problem for you as the game encourages. Then if a DM requires you to target the object generating magical darkness, you can still do so easily. If they want you to target the magical darkness itself, you can do that as well.
I tell you Paizo would have to write a thousand books spelling everything out and every situation for people to accept the simple plain language they use like the light trait which clearly states you target the magical darkness. Nowhere does the light trait say the source, the object generating it, or anything of the kind. Just a nebulous idea of your magical light magic targeting the opposing darkness magic.
Now people want an explanation for exactly what that means.
We don't agree, Deriven, but I'm not going to discuss counteracting any longer, that wasn't my original problem anyway. I just wanted to check what people of the community think on how the area of Darkness is affected by an object affected by a strong Light cantrip. There's no counterspelling, no using one spell to counteract another, just two spells cast in a basic manner.
And my understanding is: not at all. Regardless of the strength of outside light sources, the area of Darkness remains dark. It can only be illuminated by a Light cantrip if the object affected by the cantrip is brought inside (and the Light is of high enough level).
By the way, from this understanding comes a surprising conclusion: if you're inside the area of Darkness, then no matter how strong the light sources are and where they are, you won't be able to see anything outside the area, as no light from the outside can get inside. You'd need other senses, like darkvision.
Just FYI, I want to point out I can't find a single light spell on AoN with a target line of "magical darkness" or the like.True, but the light trait can be added to a spell with metamagic, for example with the Scintillating Spell. It would still need to be a spell that can affect other magical effects. Alternatively, it can be argued that if the spell with the light trait affects the same target or area as the spell with the darkness trait then one is targeted directly at another. I wouldn't say so about the Light cantrip (targeted at an object) and Darkness spell (targeted at an area) though.
Counterpoint: removing all of the precise senses of one side of a combat has a much more disruptive effect on the balance of an encounter than negating a slotted spell with a cantrip does.You know, I think that changing the balance of the encounter by modifying the conditions on the battlefield is the intended purpose of all battlefield control spells. It's no bug, it's a feature.
I think that's pretty well covered then.
Regardless of the strength of outside light sources, the area of Darkness remains dark. It can only be illuminated by a Light cantrip if the object affected by the cantrip is brought inside (and the Light is of high enough level).
By the way, from this understanding comes a surprising conclusion: if you're inside the area of Darkness, then no matter how strong the light sources are and where they are, you won't be able to see anything outside the area, as no light from the outside can get inside. You'd need other senses, like darkvision.
Also once the light source enters the area of Darkness, then the light also doesn't leave the area. So the inside of the Darkness effect will be lit, but not the outside.
I have a level 13 darkness cleric. It has really brutalized some enemies with the ability to steal dark vision. Even just for a round it has been good, but I have had 2 bosses crit fail on it and the fight was instantly over. The party has a rogue with blind fight and a champion with just regular darkvision, a bard with the same, and a wizard. I am trying to convince more character to join the darkness and become shadow dancers because greater darkvision stays relatively rare on the creatures in our AP, and the the focus spell steals that just the same.
Steal Darkvision? I like that. I did not know that existed.
The focus spell is called “Darken eyes.” I don’t think a lot of players go for the darkness domain because the 1st level spell is a bit lackluster and difficult to use. I pretty much had no focus spell for 8 levels but you could pick it up as an additional domain later or retrain into it. It is a very good advanced domain spell. On a success they lose darkvision for 1 round. On a failure it is 1 minute. When they crit fail they are blinded as well. At level 13 I cast it 2 times an encounter and have a pretty decent shot at taking the creatures night vision away for the encounter. Creatures don’t usually expect it, nor are they usually prepared to lose the sense. It has been a fun tactic. It would work better with 2 casters, so one could cast darkness and the other steal the darkvision, but greater darkvision at least provides concealment to most creatures so I do that first over the party and then hit the monster with darken eyes when it comes in to fight us on round 2
Also once the light source enters the area of Darkness, then the light also doesn't leave the area. So the inside of the Darkness effect will be lit, but not the outside.
I wouldn't go that far. True, there is the sentence "From outside, it appears as a globe of pure darkness.", but I think it describes the appearance of the area of Darkness only when it's not illuminated inside by a strong light source. It would be very strange if the area affected by Darkness spell would be better lit by a given light source than the area not affected by the spell. If the light source is so strong that it is not suppressed by Darkness, it should also be able to shine through the border of the area, giving the illumination outside and revealing the illuminated part of the area that without it would be affected by Darkness.
Actually, I was using the previous line:
Light can't pass through, so creatures in the area can't see outside.
It also implies that light from a magical light source also can't pass through the barrier at the edge. Note that this line makes no exceptions for magical light sources either.
It also implies that light from a magical light source also can't pass through the barrier at the edge. Note that this line makes no exceptions for magical light sources either.
Yes, but it only talks about seeing outside from the inside (or rather: not seeing it). Therefore it can be understood as talking only about the light trying to pass through the border from the outside.
If it were to be understood that the border doesn't let light pass both ways, it would create the situation I described in the previous post: the spell cast around a strong light source would be affecting the outside of its area more that the inside (it would prevent the illumination outside while not affecting how bright it is inside), which is counterintuitive and I don't think it should work like that.
which is counterintuitive and I don't think it should work like that.
There are a lot of things in this thread that people are vehemently arguing for that I don't think are intuitive and don't think it should work like that.
which is counterintuitive and I don't think it should work like that.There are a lot of things in this thread that people are vehemently arguing for that I don't think are intuitive and don't think it should work like that.
That seems to be the case for a lot of PF1 and PF2. I guess go with what makes sense in your home games and whatever is official in PFS.
I run the light cantrip as being able to dispel darkness trait spells if used for counteracting.
I run the overlap exactly as it is says. If they run into each other, one overrides the other for the area or darkness or light if the right level requirements are met. You can see the light if the area is big enough to cover the entire darkness area or vice versa.
I like to keep things simple and fast moving in game. I don't like bogging down with too much trying to figure out intent. For me things do what they say unless as has been the case more than a few times someone finds some contradictory rule in some other part of the book.