I'm back with another crazy bard build I'd like your opinions on.
Bard with the Alchemist and Shadowdancer dedication to throw bombs from shadows!
Now I know Alchemists have a rep for being weak with their bombs and the dedication is mostly for handing out elixirs like candy but I want to attempt to make a bard who still focuses on spells but has bombs and elixirs as back up for some AoE damage and debuffs/buffs.
Rulesets: Free Archetype and Gradual Ability Boost
Starting at level 2
Fetchling - Dhampir
Initial Stat Spread:
STR: 10 CON: 12 WIS: 10 DEX: 16 INT: 14 CHA: 18
INT would eventually be bumped to 18 with DEX and CHA reaching 20
I'd start as an Enigma Bard for Bardic Lore and True Strike
Multifarious into Maestro for Lingering, Heroics, and Eternal Composition
Bard Feats:
LV 4: Combat Reading/Inspire Defense
LV 6: Dirge of Doom - my favorite composition spell and fits my horror vibe
LV 8: Inspire Heroics - +2/+3 keeps bomb accuracy up
LV 10: Multifarious Muse Warrior - Outside of Imaginary Walls I don't love the level 10 bard feats. Taking Warrior muse here makes weapon proficiency with bombs go up to expert next level (+21 to hit with 20 DEX)
Alchemist Feats:
Level 4: Quick Bomber
Level 6: Expert Alchemy
Level 8: Calculated Splash
At Level 10 I'll swap to Shadowdancer Archetype taking Dance of Darkness at level 12.
Essentially this makes my actions look like this:
First round - Dance of Darkness. Combat Reading or Hide
Then I could either - Inspire Heroics, True Strike, Throw Bomb (Shadow Sneak Attack at level 14 also procs on hit lol)
Or - Do Bardy things with my spells
With heroics, flat-footed from hidden, and true strike my bombs have a decent hit-rate and putting stats into INT would help both Bardic Lore and make my bombs splash damage hit 1/2 tiers higher with Calculated Splash
Once I've swapped into Shadowdancer at level 10 the Alchemist reagents will be used for some bombs but mostly Level 5 and below elixirs and mutagens while I just downtime craft bombs since that's about when the damage will begin to drop.
My biggest questions with this build are around Combat Reading. Since I need to invest in Performance and Stealth for Shadowdancer and Crafting to craft items above item-level 9 I wouldn't really be able to put anything into Occultism. Is Combat reading still useful then (by that extent is Bardic Lore)?
This build give me many avenues of debuffing, buffing, and attacking both with and without spells (too used to GMs just "turning off" magic in one way or another leaving previous characters of mine useless). Any feedback is appreciated as while I'm obviously not mix/max focused I do want to optimize this build and not just be another bard who can attack with a bow or rapier.
I don't see any problem with this build. As you said it isn't min/max. But this don't make it useless.
As supportive bard you are efficient with this build, also the bombs splash damage make it useful specially against opponents with weakness.
My only doubt is if you plan to use spells to atk. Because if not you don't need to max your cha, you can focus in Con or Wis.
I don't see any problem with this build. As you said it isn't min/max. But this don't make it useless.
As supportive bard you are efficient with this build, also the bombs splash damage make it useful specially against opponents with weakness.
My only doubt is if you plan to use spells to atk. Because if not you don't need to max your cha, you can focus in Con or Wis.
By attack do you mean just spell attack roll/damage spells? I'll have Telekinetic Projectile and Illusory Creature whose damage directly scale with CHA. But I'll still also be slinging debuffs and save spells. Doesn't having a lower CHA mean a lower spell DC?
EDIT: My final stat spread I'd be aiming for is
STR:10 CON: 16 WIS: 16 DEX: 20 INT: 20 CHA: 21
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That seems a lot of investment (and weaknesses) for a PC who can toss a Telekinetic Projectile for similar damage, or could use a shortbow to good effect as a 3rd action after a non-MAP spell (or if GMs shut off magic, which I think would make everyone nearly useless).
Also not sure about the "from the shadows" angle since you'll gain little from hiding (and reveal yourself anyway w/ spells). You also probably won't have many spare actions to Hide (especially if drawing out bombs). Tougher battles will push you to cast a spell & buff w/ a Composition.
The bombs will be behind the curve as you know, mainly useful for targeting Weaknesses where yes, those investments will finally pay off (and vs. appropriate Golems). Just not sure you're getting the imagery you're first describing, and certainly few "horror vibes".
And your proficiency w/ bombs stops at Trained, so yeah, that falls behind to useless except I guess splash vs. a crowd w/ Weakness.
I'd suggest picking a lane, either "horror bard" or "shadow bomber", with the latter being maybe a Precision Ranger/Alchemist/Shadow Dancer (since a Rogue wouldn't advance in bomb proficiency either). Or maybe Investigator, though a Swashbuckler w/ Finisher bombs might be unique.
That seems a lot of investment (and weaknesses) for a PC who can toss a Telekinetic Projectile for similar damage, or could use a shortbow to good effect as a 3rd action after a non-MAP spell (or if GMs shut off magic, which I think would make everyone nearly useless).
Also not sure about the "from the shadows" angle since you'll gain little from hiding (and reveal yourself anyway w/ spells). You also probably won't have many spare actions to Hide (especially if drawing out bombs). Tougher battles will push you to cast a spell & buff w/ a Composition.
The bombs will be behind the curve as you know, mainly useful for targeting Weaknesses where yes, those investments will finally pay off (and vs. appropriate Golems). Just not sure you're getting the imagery you're first describing, and certainly few "horror vibes".
And your proficiency w/ bombs stops at Trained, so yeah, that falls behind to useless except I guess splash vs. a crowd w/ Weakness.
I'd suggest picking a lane, either "horror bard" or "shadow bomber", with the latter being maybe a Precision Ranger/Alchemist/Shadow Dancer (since a Rogue wouldn't advance in bomb proficiency either). Or maybe Investigator, though a Swashbuckler w/ Finisher bombs might be unique.
I'm confused on where you see a lot of investment for this? Outside of 1 ability bump in Crafting it's everything I'd be taking for my Bard to begin with. Unless I'm Legendary crafting which still isn't something I've decided on but otherwise I'd be maxing Occultism so equally as situational I feel.
Warrior muse make bombs have expert proficiency which is the best Bards get anyway so they're on par with a bow (which I did mention I'm trying specifically not to do because it's gotten so dull for me).
"Horror vibes" is more RP based and with some of the occult spells not necessarily a mechanics theme I'm going for.
That seems a lot of investment (and weaknesses) for a PC who can toss a Telekinetic Projectile for similar damage, or could use a shortbow to good effect as a 3rd action after a non-MAP spell (or if GMs shut off magic, which I think would make everyone nearly useless).
Also not sure about the "from the shadows" angle since you'll gain little from hiding (and reveal yourself anyway w/ spells). You also probably won't have many spare actions to Hide (especially if drawing out bombs). Tougher battles will push you to cast a spell & buff w/ a Composition.
The bombs will be behind the curve as you know, mainly useful for targeting Weaknesses where yes, those investments will finally pay off (and vs. appropriate Golems). Just not sure you're getting the imagery you're first describing, and certainly few "horror vibes".
And your proficiency w/ bombs stops at Trained, so yeah, that falls behind to useless except I guess splash vs. a crowd w/ Weakness.
I'd suggest picking a lane, either "horror bard" or "shadow bomber", with the latter being maybe a Precision Ranger/Alchemist/Shadow Dancer (since a Rogue wouldn't advance in bomb proficiency either). Or maybe Investigator, though a Swashbuckler w/ Finisher bombs might be unique.
And Swashbuckler w/ Finisher Bombs sounds awesome. I haven't looked into them too much though can they be ranged? My group already has melee covered.
Hadn't noticed you added Warrior Muse later. My bad. :-)
The amount of investment is that plus a string of feats in your Archetype.
And yes, I agree the bow's pretty generic, yet free, leaving lots of room for other flavor via those feats.
Dang it, looks like Flying Blade doesn't work. I'd hoped only thrown melee weapons needed to be Agile or Finesse, but it seems all thrown need to be (and there's the GM call on whether bombs count as Thrown since they lack the trait, even though you do throw them.)
You could still throw bombs well, just w/o the damage bump.
And yeah, I'm a bit biased against full casters trying to emphasize their martial side because w/ the lack of accuracy and stunted Weapon Specialization, they get to mediocre...for a steep price.
Thankfully w/ Free Archetype, you can afford it, right? You're still an 18 stat caster who's buffing several melee PCs. If your PC's image isn't around "scary bomber in the dark" (like I'd been basing advice around), then I would say, sure, that's a lot of potential utility (though I'd ditch/retrain bomb feats if only bombing in emergencies).
I think YuriP was thinking that if you're default attack is via bombs you could ignore Cha, but it sounds like you're only into bombs for early levels?
By attack do you mean just spell attack roll/damage spells? I'll have Telekinetic Projectile and Illusory Creature whose damage directly scale with CHA. But I'll still also be slinging debuffs and save spells. Doesn't having a lower CHA mean a lower spell DC?
Yes I mean spell attack rolls and spell DC for saves.
Many players make bards as full support without using attack and save spells only buffs, soothe and maybe magic missiles. This kind of build doesn't require a high Cha. Including if we consider the status bonus from inspire competence and inspire heroics they can have a good attack bonus specially if they have warrior muse.
I think YuriP was thinking that if you're default attack is via bombs you could ignore Cha, but it sounds like you're only into bombs for early levels?
Yes, I was thinking he wanted to build a support focused bard that sometimes hides and throw a bomb with to do some damage and maybe add a sneak attack bonus to it.
Now thinking better in this strategy. If you are taking Shadowdancer due sneak attack isn't better to multiclass with rogue? You can also take the sneak attack and also can take Dread Striker to combo with Dirge of Doom.
And Swashbuckler w/ Finisher Bombs sounds awesome. I haven't looked into them too much though can they be ranged? My group already has melee covered.That seems a lot of investment (and weaknesses) for a PC who can toss a Telekinetic Projectile for similar damage, or could use a shortbow to good effect as a 3rd action after a non-MAP spell (or if GMs shut off magic, which I think would make everyone nearly useless).
Also not sure about the "from the shadows" angle since you'll gain little from hiding (and reveal yourself anyway w/ spells). You also probably won't have many spare actions to Hide (especially if drawing out bombs). Tougher battles will push you to cast a spell & buff w/ a Composition.
The bombs will be behind the curve as you know, mainly useful for targeting Weaknesses where yes, those investments will finally pay off (and vs. appropriate Golems). Just not sure you're getting the imagery you're first describing, and certainly few "horror vibes".
And your proficiency w/ bombs stops at Trained, so yeah, that falls behind to useless except I guess splash vs. a crowd w/ Weakness.
I'd suggest picking a lane, either "horror bard" or "shadow bomber", with the latter being maybe a Precision Ranger/Alchemist/Shadow Dancer (since a Rogue wouldn't advance in bomb proficiency either). Or maybe Investigator, though a Swashbuckler w/ Finisher bombs might be unique.
I have a certain love on the Alchemical Sciences Investigator with Alchemist archetype. The mix of Devise a Stratagem + Thrown a bomb is fantastic IMO. You can do a full rogue like precision damage with bombs. This allows very low damage bombs like Acid Flask to do a very good initial damage due precision damage at same that helps you to do a good manage of your resources (because if you roll a bad dice in Devise a Stratagem you can switch your target and attack with other weapon like a bow using your normal Strike).
By attack do you mean just spell attack roll/damage spells? I'll have Telekinetic Projectile and Illusory Creature whose damage directly scale with CHA. But I'll still also be slinging debuffs and save spells. Doesn't having a lower CHA mean a lower spell DC?Yes I mean spell attack rolls and spell DC for saves.
Many players make bards as full support without using attack and save spells only buffs, soothe and maybe magic missiles. This kind of build doesn't require a high Cha. Including if we consider the status bonus from inspire competence and inspire heroics they can have a good attack bonus specially if they have warrior muse.
I think YuriP was thinking that if you're default attack is via bombs you could ignore Cha, but it sounds like you're only into bombs for early levels?Yes, I was thinking he wanted to build a support focused bard that sometimes hides and throw a bomb with to do some damage and maybe add a sneak attack bonus to it.
Now thinking better in this strategy. If you are taking Shadowdancer due sneak attack isn't better to multiclass with rogue? You can also take the sneak attack and also can take Dread Striker to combo with Dirge of Doom.
That is close to what I'm looking at yes. I'm more on the Debuff side of Bard than buff. The compositions, heightened Haste, Silence, and Invisibility are my buffs and the rest of my bard kit is based around reducing the enemy stats so for that I think I'd still need a high CHA for the save DC. I'm taking Alchemist for elixirs to heal my dhampir butt, mutagens to mess with my party's genetics when necessary, and figured bombs are an option how could I make them a viable fall back if I have nothing else to do.
I'm not taking Shadowdancer for Sneak Attack (not sure if I'm taking sneak attack at all just thought it funny that it could proc on a bomb). Shadowdancer is for Dance of Darkness to help my party hide easier (rogue and sniper primarily want this) and the eventual Master of Darkness adding to my defenses. Since standing in my own darkness makes me hidden from things without darkvision tossing a bomb out before dropping a debuff spell seems like it plays nicely together
I'm not taking Shadowdancer for Sneak Attack (not sure if I'm taking sneak attack at all just thought it funny that it could proc on a bomb). Shadowdancer is for Dance of Darkness to help my party hide easier (rogue and sniper primarily want this) and the eventual Master of Darkness adding to my defenses. Since standing in my own darkness makes me hidden from things without darkvision tossing a bomb out before dropping a debuff spell seems like it plays nicely together
Note that Dance of Darkness is a "double-edged sword". It can protect you and your allies in darkness but also make them "blinded" too (all creatures inside darkness area are blind to outside and all creatures outside cannot see inside the darkness area) even if they have darkvision (in this case the creature becomes concealed instead). So not all players will like this even in a complicated situation.
I'm not taking Shadowdancer for Sneak Attack (not sure if I'm taking sneak attack at all just thought it funny that it could proc on a bomb). Shadowdancer is for Dance of Darkness to help my party hide easier (rogue and sniper primarily want this) and the eventual Master of Darkness adding to my defenses. Since standing in my own darkness makes me hidden from things without darkvision tossing a bomb out before dropping a debuff spell seems like it plays nicely togetherNote that Dance of Darkness is a "double-edged sword". It can protect you and your allies in darkness but also make them "blinded" too (all creatures inside darkness area are blind to outside and all creatures outside cannot see inside the darkness area) even if they have darkvision (in this case the creature becomes concealed instead). So not all players will like this even in a complicated situation.
Yes this is true. However both the sniper and I have greater dark vision. The rogue will most likely just use it for Spring from the Shadows. Everyone else it's there if they just need to break line of sight for one reason or another but Dance of Darkness is my "selfishly" chosen spell. If I take Shadow Jump as well I could plant a few of these around and teleport through them all and if an enemy tries to hide it them, well I can see them still so fun times for me.
I do like your idea of the Investigator tossing bombs. Next time I play a martial I'll have to look at that because that sound's all kinds of glorious for a mad bomber