Lunar Weapon Clarification Request

[Blakeg]

The other day on Discord and in Reddit we were discussing Lunar Weapons for Solarians and whether they qualify for Doshko Specialist or even Soulfire Fusions.

Let's first look at each of the texts in question and I'll explain why it's an issue afterwards
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Lunar Weapon:
You have studied the delicate and luminous light reflected from a moon or similar celestial body, allowing you to bring forth an exquisite weapon made for graceful combat. This manifestation functions similarly to solar weapon, except it deals 1d4 damage at 1st level. This damage increases by 1d4 at 6th level, 9th level, 12th level, and every level thereafter. Your lunar weapon also has the feint and operative special qualities (though it can’t be used to make trick attacks, if you have that class feature). Unlike other melee weapons with the operative special quality, when you gain Weapon Specialization at 3rd level, you add your full solarian level to damage with your lunar weapon, as opposed to half. If you’re a multiclass solarian, you add your full solarian level and half your levels in other classes to damage with your lunar weapon.
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Doshko Specialist
If you are a solarian using a solar weapon and choose a doshko for its general design, you can apply the effects of this archetype to your solar weapon as though it were a doshko, as long as it remains as that design.
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Soulfire Fusion
The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals. When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion, you add your Charisma bonus to the damage done, in addition to your Strength bonus.
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The key issues are:

Lunar weapons are similar to solar weapons.

Doshko Specialist requires you to be using a "solar weapon" and choose a doshko for its general design.

Soulfire Fusion requires that you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion.

Some people are adamant that it's not usable with Doshko Specialists, but if that's the intent then as written neither is Soulfire Fusion, both only apply when wielding a solar weapon or for a solarian with a solar weapon.

Some clarification of Lunar Weapons and also Doshakari and whether they are considered Doshko would be fantastic. Yes diam fiat is a thing however when discussing the rules it doesn't hurt to have more clarity.

Thanks for your consideration.

[Kishmo]

I don't see any reason why these options wouldn't work together, rules as written.
If you are a solarian using a solar weapon and choose a doshko for its general design, you can apply the effects of this archetype to your solar weapon: ✓
You can make your solar weapon be generally designed like whatever you want - even a doshko! It wouldn't behave like a doshko, but it'll sure look like one.

The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals: ✓
Soulfire fusion works only with Solar Weapon Crystals. Lunar Weapon, quote, "functions similarly to solar weapon" except for damage and some weapon special properties, none of which preclude weapon crystals. You can def apply weapon crystals (and therefore the soulfire fusion) to lunar weapons.

So as far as the rules go, I don't see any reason why these options wouldn't work together?

In-game, though, I could see there being a sort of cultural aversion to doing so. The doshko is, literally, a holy weapon, and the (uh?)holy symbol of Damoritosh. It holds a huge place in vesk society and culture. For someone to take something that is very much not a doshko, like a lunar weapon that relies on grace and poise rather than overbearing strength, and then to present it in the hallowed iconography of the doshko? Could really upset some people - and could be enough reason for a character to choose not to go down that path.
Like, to draw an analogy: could a practitioner of Okinawan Kobudō use nunchaku, that had the handles replaced with crucifixes? Sure. Would it upset a whole lot of people and create enough backlash to make the practitioner seriously reconsider? Probably!

Then again, the Veskarium also prizes martial effectiveness, without really prescribing a lot of value to the how, as long as the results are good. And, player characters as specifically not regular people. They're adventurers! The Veskarium is a utilitarian, conquest-focused society, right? I imagine that someone specialised in an unorthodox, light-weight, graceful "doshko" manifested by a Solarian, who was able to otherwise satisfy the requirements and tenets* of a doshko specialist, would probably be accorded the same rights and honour, as long as they had the skills to back it up? They might get some funny looks, a lot of scorn from Traditionalists, and have to defend their title (by force, if necessary) more than average, is all.

I think the doshakari is right out, though, as that no longer satisfies the requirement for the doshko specialist that your solarian weapon have the 'general form' of a doshko. I think soulfire would for sure work, still, though.

* and here I refer to the non-mechanical requirements of the archetype, but the, I dunno, in-world requirements. Like only manifesting your doshko with the correct number of 'teeth' you've earned, or whatever other cultural requirements there may be. Maybe you need to defeat a doshko specialist in combat to earn your "black belt" equivalent, or whatever.

[BigNorseWolf]

If you are a solarian using a solar weapon and choose a doshko for its general design, you can apply the effects of this archetype to your solar weapon as though it were a doshko,

Raw Lunar weapon, Solar Armor, Solar Flare, Solar Shield , and solar Weapon are completely different Solar manifestations. lunar weapon would not qualify.

It "functions similarly" which.... arrrrrigh. Yeah. Might let it qualify. but it isn't the thing but... blech. "As if" all over again.

I however cannot see any particular advantage the lunar manifestation would have over a solar weapon Or what difference it would make. So the only place that level of persnmicket would matter is SFS , and the lunar weapon is banhammered there anyway. (possibly for this reason)

[Kishmo]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

So the only place that level of persnmicket would matter is SFS , and the lunar weapon is banhammered there anyway. (possibly for this reason)

...wait, is it banned from Society? It lacks the little graphic on AoN, but we all know that's far from an infallible source. The AR page for FFoD says all options are legal, except for the listed exceptions; and Lunar Weapon isn't listed.

I have vague plans to make a Society Dex/Cha Solarian someday; I hope it's not banned :D

[Arutema]

Kishmo wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

So the only place that level of persnmicket would matter is SFS , and the lunar weapon is banhammered there anyway. (possibly for this reason)

...wait, is it banned from Society? It lacks the little graphic on AoN, but we all know that's far from an infallible source. The AR page for FFoD says all options are legal, except for the listed exceptions; and Lunar Weapon isn't listed.

I have vague plans to make a Society Dex/Cha Solarian someday; I hope it's not banned :D

Nethys appears to be in error here. Additional Resources is the canon place to check for legality.

[BigNorseWolf]

Alright then, let the persnicket fight resume.....

(I['ll double check AON if i'm planning a build around something but not a gun I'm buying or internet convo)

[Blakeg]

Kishmo wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

So the only place that level of persnmicket would matter is SFS , and the lunar weapon is banhammered there anyway. (possibly for this reason)

...wait, is it banned from Society? It lacks the little graphic on AoN, but we all know that's far from an infallible source. The AR page for FFoD says all options are legal, except for the listed exceptions; and Lunar Weapon isn't listed.

I have vague plans to make a Society Dex/Cha Solarian someday; I hope it's not banned :D

The issue then is whether soulfire fusion works.

"The soulfire fusion (and soulfire fusion seals) can only be applied to solarian weapon crystals. When you hit a target with a solar weapon augmented by a solarian weapon crystal with the soulfire fusion, you add your Charisma bonus to the damage done, in addition to your Strength bonus."

If a Lunar Weapon isn't considered a "Solar Weapon" for Doshko Specialist then it's also not considered a "solar weapon" for soulfire fusions.

While DM Fiat comes into play it doesn't hurt to clarify the intent here because having the rules as coherent as possible leads to fewer shenanigans.

[Ravien999]

Lunar weapon declares that it functions similarly to Solar weapon. While it doesn't have as much verbosity as the similar facts in Flare and Shield, this is enough precedence to indicate it functions identically - otherwise lunar can't even use weapon crystals, yet alone soulfire.

Soulfire was only banned on Flare because of Flare having the language disallowing any fusions which dont affect small arms.