Counterfeit Mage Question


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

I am considering playing the Counterfeit Mage archetype for Rogue the next time I play in a PF 1e game (whenever that might be), but have an interesting question.

The first level Counterfeit Mage ability as 1/2 level to a number skills and checks, including checks to activate scrolls and wands. The problem I find is that to activate a scroll, the reader must be either an arcane or divine spell caster. So, the question is what's the point in being able to add half my level to checks to activating scrolls when I can't do so without being a spell caster? And if I need to be a spell caster to activate scrolls what's the point in playing a Counterfeit Mage?

Dark Archive

use magic device is a skill...


Spellcasters are able to activate scrolls of spells that are on their class spell list and of which they are subsequently high enough level to cast without the need of a UMD check. To use a scroll that is not on your class list, of higher level than you can currently cast, or at all if you are not a spellcaster, requires a UMD check.

Counterfeit mage makes passing that UMD check substantially easier for the rogue by providing a bonus to it.


Note trying to cast a spell on your list but you can't cast yet isn't a UMD check, but a caster level check against a DC=1+CL of the item. Theoretically this would also get a bonus say if your Counterfeit Mage decided to become slightly less counterfeit with a multiclass.

Liberty's Edge

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Note trying to cast a spell on your list but you can't cast yet isn't a UMD check, but a caster level check against a DC=1+CL of the item. Theoretically this would also get a bonus say if your Counterfeit Mage decided to become slightly less counterfeit with a multiclass.
AoN wrote:
Magical Expertise (Ex): At 1st level, a counterfeit mage adds 1/2 his level to Disable Device checks to disarm magical traps, Perception checks to find magical traps, and Use Magic Device checks to activate scrolls and wands. A counterfeit mage can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps. This ability replaces trapfinding.

It works with UMD checks, not Caster Level checks.


I would say its probably intended to extend to that one case where instead of using UMD you use CL, as that is an exception to always using UMD to activate magical items.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
I would say its probably intended to extend to that one case where instead of using UMD you use CL, as that is an exception to always using UMD to activate magical items.

UMD covers it already. Emulating a higher CL would fall under emulate class feature… not that its even needed since the rules for using UMD to activate a scroll doesn’t care about your access to spellcasting. A wizard could use either a CL check or a UMD check to activate a scroll of a spell they are not high enough level to cast. Generally the CL check will be the easier choice, but if you have a high enough UMD, then you may as well use it instead of its more likely to succeed.

Liberty's Edge

A higher CL isn't a class feature. There is a specific subsection of every class that is called "Class features", that is what you can emulate with a UMD check.

You can use the UMD ability Use a Scroll, but the DC is higher than Emulate a class feature.


Diego Rossi wrote:

A higher CL isn't a class feature. There is a specific subsection of every class that is called "Class features", that is what you can emulate with a UMD check.

You can use the UMD ability Use a Scroll, but the DC is higher than Emulate a class feature.

Tell my GM that… he insists UMD for Emulate Class Feature is required to emulate higher CL… also… the DC isn’t higher they would both be 20+CL. The difference being that one route requires only one UMD while the other requires two… which is why I said Emulating Class Feature isn’t actually needed because of how the rules for UMD Activate a Scroll actually work.

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