AoO and Hammer / Flail Critical Specialization Effect

[Dark Dave]

Hello all.

I had a few questions that when I searched online, it seems to have varying opinions so I thought I would try here to see if there is an official stance.

The first is, when a creature triggers the Attack of Opportunity and is crit'ed by a hammer or flail, does the creature end in the spot that triggered the AoO or the spot they were moving to?

The scenario for the second is a target is crit'ed by a hammer or flail which proc's the critical specialization effect of knocking the target prone. The question is when the target Stands, which will trigger the AoO, if another crit occurs, is the target knocked down prone again resulting in the need for the target to use another action to stand or does the target just take the damage and ends the triggering action standing?

Lastly, if in the above situation, if the target decides to crawl instead of stand, would a crit on the AoO that has been triggered stop that crawl and yield damage or will it only cause damage since the target isn't standing which means that it can't be knocked prone (not sure if crawling is in a prone state or not)?

Thanks in advance,
Dave

[breithauptclan]

Not sure how official you consider this, but there is a video with one of the game devs on reactions due to standing up. here

Generally my understanding of reactions and how and when they happen is that they happen after the action that triggers them. If they disrupt the triggering action, then the reaction still happens afterwards, and only the part of the triggering action that is actually prevented from happening is undone. That is the smallest amount of time rewinding that I can manage with a generalized ruling on reactions.

So if a creature is crit with a flail while moving: Reactions trigger for each square of movement moved, and AoO triggers for leaving a threatened square. So the moving from that square happens, then the flail crit drops them there. So they may end up prone in a square that is out of reach of the attacker with the flail as long as the square that they left was in reach.

With my running of the rules for reactions, doing something that knocks the target prone as a reaction to them standing up would indeed knock them prone again. I believe that this is in conflict with the ruling from the game dev from that video. It isn't the only thing that the two of us disagree on. Though I would also concede that this particular case is quite harsh and may need a specific exception.

If you are crawling, then you are prone. Though I am not seeing anything about being prone preventing a creature from being knocked prone again. Or even being prevented from taking damage from being knocked prone.

[Themetricsystem]

I don't know where exactly it can be found and I don't actually have the time to look (heck for all I know it could have been in person at PaizoCon, GenCon, on Twitch, or other similar industry conventions/meetups) but I am almost 100% rock-solid stone-cold certain for a fact that one dev or another (I think it was SRM now that I ponder on it a bit) came out and explicitly explained that chain tripping is NOT a thing and any instance they find where it might end up happening due to oversight is something they fully intend to correcting with errata.

[Pixel Popper]

The rules for Move Actions that Trigger Reactions are pretty clear. "Each time you exit a square (or move 5 feet if not using a grid) within a creature’s reach, your movement triggers those reactions ..."

Even if the target plans to continue moving, a reaction that makes them prone knocks them prone in the last square they entered when the triggered reaction occurred.

For Stand, and other move actions like Fly to hover in place that don't leave a square, "the trigger instead happens at the end of that action or ability." Being knocked prone and then getting knocked prone again after standing is absolutely possible.

In fact, a character can Trip a target and then Ready to Trip with a trigger of, "he stands up."

Nothing in the rules regarding movement, reactions, or tripping prohibit tripping a creature that just completed a Stand action or any other Move action.

[Dark Dave]

Thanks all for your opinions/advice/knowledge.

I was really interested in the Paizo Designer's opinion, who disagreed with using the FEAT:Stand Still to keep from standing, however he did say "that we don't try to do to many ways to do those same type of loops in 2nd edition" which isn't a admission that it isn't possible with other options (i.e. Rogue FEAT: Stay Down!). The scenario used was also completely different in that the FEAT:Stand Still disrupts an action which is a not even close to AoO which does nothing to disrupt an action. The Critical Specialization Effect occurs after the AoO reaction is used, which based on the rules for "Move Actions that Trigger Reactions" , it would stand to reason that the Trip occurs after the target is standing (i.e. leaving the square = standing up from prone), resulting in the crit dropping them prone again.

Sadly I think this is going to end up falling under the house rules for our group since the rules seem ambiguous enough that both sides can be make a valid argument.

[Squiggit]

I don't think there's really anything ambiguous about it. The designer's statement and the rules themselves both say the triggered ability happens after you stand back up... so if the triggered ability also includes a trip, there's no reason to suggest it wouldn't function.

[Pixel Popper]

Dark Dave wrote:

... The Critical Specialization Effect occurs after the AoO reaction is used...

The Critical Specialization Effect does not occur after the reaction since it is part of the strike that is made for the AoO.

Quote:

... which based on the rules for "Move Actions that Trigger Reactions" , it would stand to reason that the Trip occurs after the target is standing (i.e. leaving the square = standing up from prone), resulting in the crit dropping them prone again...

You conclusion is correct, but your journey to the conclusion is not.

The pertinent part of the "Move Actions that Trigger Reactions" that I quoted is that, for Move actions that do not leave a square (e.g. Stand), "the trigger instead happens at the end of that action..." (emphasis added).

Quote:

... Sadly I think this is going to end up falling under the house rules for our group since the rules seem ambiguous enough that both sides can be make a valid argument.

As written the rules are clear and nothing is ambiguous:

When a striding target triggers AoO, and the strike is a critical hit with a flail or hammer, the target is knocked prone in the square they just entered when the reaction was triggered. Being knocked prone interrupts the Stride since a prone target may only Crawl or Stand.

When a prone target uses the Stand action, at the end of the action he is no longer prone (and, thus, no longer flat-footed from being prone), and then AoO is triggered. If the AoO strike is a critical hit with a Flail or a Hammer, the target is knocked prone once again.

[Dark Dave]

Thank you for the corrections... I will definitely be sharing this with my gaming group.