I'm attempting to build a kobold rogue that specializes in snares for Pathfinder Society. I've spent the last couple of days trying to figure out the ideal feat path for someone focusing on snares, and am now turning to the hive mind for support.
My goal priorities are as follows:
First, what is the most efficient method of getting the most free snares per day?
Second, what options exist for making said snares far more likely to get triggered and not be wasted?
Third, what options should I take to increase the general versatility and/or effectiveness of the snares?
I appreciate any help and advice you're able to provide.
My question would be:
Do you want to play a character who places Snares when you have time to prepare the battlefield beforehand or do you want to play a character who places Snares during combat?
|
I have a snare specialist ranger, currently level 6. I might need to update it some, but this was the plan.
1 Crossbow Ace, Snare Setter
2 Snarecrafter Dedication (4 quick snares), Snare Crafting skill feat
3
4 Surprise Snare (throw prepped snare at target at -2dc)
5 Snare Genius (3 more quick snares for free)
6 Snare Specialist (4 free snares)
7
8 Powerful Snares (Snare DCs are higher of normal or class DC)
9
10 Giant Snare (Merge 2 quick snares for 10x10)
11
12 Plentiful Snares (2x quick snares)
13 Vicious Snares (+1 / 2 d6 precision with snares)
Surprise Snare is key for being able to use them in the middle of a fight.
Here's what I'm considering currently. Any ideas on improving it? I'm thinking I'd like a blend of in-combat snare abilities and pre-combat setup abilities.
Currently I have a lot of Stealth stuff since I'm hoping the GM might let me discreetly set up snares even in hostile areas.
01 Alchemical Crafting, Snare Crafting (B), Snare Setter, Strongjaw Kobold, Specialty Crafting (alchemy, background), Trap Finder
02 Snarecrafter Dedication, Terrain Stalker (underbrush)
03 Pickpocket, Thorough Search
04 Subtle Theft, Surprise Snare
05 Experienced Smuggler, Snare Genius
06 Light Step, Terrain Stalker (rubble)
07 Expeditious Search, Impeccable Crafter
08 Inventor, Quick Snares
09 Snare Commando, Swift Sneak
10 Foil Senses, Powerful Sneak
11 Incredible Scout, Slippery Secrets
12 Kip Up, Plentiful Snares
13 Cat Fall, Vicious Snares
14 Lightning Snares, Wary Disarmament
15 Ancestral Paragon, Craft Anything, Slither (B)
16 Legendary Thief, Sneak Savant
17 Between the Scales, Legendary Sneak
18 Quick Jump, Swift Elusion (for putting people into snares)
19 Cloud Jump, True Perception
20 Hidden Paragon, Wall Jump
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't see much the point of Quick Snares, you should only use your daily Snares as you have so many of them. You don't have a way to put enemies onto Snares and as it's PFS you can't count on your allies, so Lightning Snares seems useless. Swift Elusion is very GM dependent, some will allow you to use it to put enemies on Snares, others won't.
You don't have any classic feats to put enemies onto Snares: Whirling Throw, Titan Wrestler (to Shove bigger creature as you are small), Leading Dance (GM dependent so problematic in PFS), etc... As you speak of in-combat snare abilities, putting enemies into Snares is a must have.
You also lack anything weapon related. Feats like Gang Up and Opportune Backstab are a must have on a Rogue. In fact, I fail to see your rounds when you don't start next to an enemy. What do you do as a routine?
I don't see much the point of Quick Snares, you should only use your daily Snares as you have so many of them.
Without it, the only snares I can place quickly are those from my daily allowance. With this feat I can also quickly place any purchased or crafted snares. It can make a big difference if I only have a couple minutes with which to litter the battlefield before an encounter.
You don't have a way to put enemies onto Snares and as it's PFS you can't count on your allies, so Lightning Snares seems useless.
I'm not sure how allies and Lightning Snares relate. With snares being a single action, I could move up to a guy, set a snare, then shove them onto it. Not really possible with three action snares. The action versatility is too good to pass up I feel. Another example might be setting a snare at the base of a ladder before climbing up it to escape a pursuing enemy.
Swift Elusion is very GM dependent, some will allow you to use it to put enemies on Snares, others won't.
Why wouldn't they allow it?
You don't have any classic feats to put enemies onto Snares: Whirling Throw, Titan Wrestler (to Shove bigger creature as you are small), Leading Dance (GM dependent so problematic in PFS), etc... As you speak of in-combat snare abilities, putting enemies into Snares is a must have.
While I agree with you here, what makes them "classic feats" in this isntance? It's my understanding that snare focused characters are rare, which would make it difficult for anything classic to come out of it.
Many of those abilities, though certainly worthwhile, seem too far afield for a rogue. I wish I could get Swift Elusion earlier, but other feats just seemed more valuable.
You also lack anything weapon related. Feats like Gang Up and Opportune Backstab are a must have on a Rogue. In fact, I fail to see your rounds when you don't start next to an enemy. What do you do as a routine?
True. This is one of the drawbacks I really worry about. I'm hoping flanking and stabbing will be enough on it's own, but perhaps it won't be. Might be an interesting experiment to see how the most basic of rogues performs in combat.
I can't believe they spread snare options out across so many feats. It'd be much easier with Free Archetype. Really, a lot of them should have been skill feats, not class feats.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Swift Elusion is GM dependent because forced movement that isn't a push/pull can't move you into "hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like." (Same issue with Leading Dance)
Does that include snares? Maybe, ask your GM.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Feats like Gang Up and Opportune Backstab are a must have on a Rogue.
True from an optimisation point of view, but sometimes you want to work a different concept.
Swift Elusion is GM dependent because forced movement that isn't a push/pull can't move you into "hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like." (Same issue with Leading Dance)
Does that include snares? Maybe, ask your GM.
The thing is snares are hidden by default so the enemy doesn't know its there. So mechanically it is hard to justify why it shouldn't work. Maybe game balance? I'd rather the game allowed it but it is perhaps a bit too strong if they did.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I could move up to a guy, set a snare, then shove them onto it.
But without Titan Wrestler, you'll be limited in the size of enemies you can push into your snares. So either you need a classical way of moving enemies (classical not from a Snare user point of view but from the game point of view) or you can't use Lightning Snares without ally help (which you can't count on in a PFS environment).
The thing is snares are hidden by default so the enemy doesn't know its there. So mechanically it is hard to justify why it shouldn't work. Maybe game balance? I'd rather the game allowed it but it is perhaps a bit too strong if they did.
If you just deployed a Snare at the feet of an enemy, I feel that the whole "Snares are hidden" thing will fall flat with many GMs as the enemy just saw you deploying it and you were not hidden while doing so (I'd have a different point of view if the character was invisible).
True from an optimisation point of view, but sometimes you want to work a different concept.
Are you sure it's necessary to say that? I'm fully aware that everything can exist. Still, I'm worried that Ravingdork's Rogue will lose a lot when unable to use Snares, and these 2 feats are the only ones I see necessary for a Rogue to be at peak efficiency.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The thing is snares are hidden by default so the enemy doesn't know its there. So mechanically it is hard to justify why it shouldn't work. Maybe game balance? I'd rather the game allowed it but it is perhaps a bit too strong if they did.If you just deployed a Snare at the feet of an enemy, I feel that the whole "Snares are hidden" thing will fall flat with many GMs as the enemy just saw you deploying it and you were not hidden while doing so (I'd have a different point of view if the character was invisible).
I do agree that the act of laying a snare is not invisible, nor the act of moving a square via the feats of doing that. So yes I agree it needs to be done out of sight.
True from an optimisation point of view, but sometimes you want to work a different concept.Are you sure it's necessary to say that?
I think that comment cuts both ways. Did you really need to remind Ravingdork of that when he said it was a specialist snare build?
Still, I'm worried that Ravingdork's Rogue will lose a lot when unable to use Snares, and these 2 feats are the only ones I see necessary for a Rogue to be at peak efficiency.
Yes I agree that a Snare builds need someone with some of Shove/Forced Movement, or someway of laying them stealthily, or prelaying them and relying on superior ranged attacks to force your enemy to close to you. In PFS I would have less hope as cooperative play is harder. I'd be looking at a highish strength Ranger or Rogue personally.
Making a few changes based on advice given up thread.
Still not sure about Titan Wrestler though, if only because bigger creatures tend to be harder to use combat maneuvers against anyways, and because my Strength mod never goes above 1, I'm thinking maybe it shouldn't be something I focus on.
Light Step > Gang Up @ 6th
Quick Snares > Opportune Backstab @ 8th
Lightning Snares > Spring from the Shadows @ 14th
Not too sure if that's the best 14th-level feat, or that this is the most efficient order I could be taking these feats.
Titan Wrestler can still work. If you also go with Assurance with Athletics your Strength can be less relevant. You have a Rogue build so you can afford the skill feats. Roughly about 15% of enemies will have low enough Reflex and 15% low enough Fortitude to make it a useful option.