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The rules in Kingmaker are a bit ambiguous about rewarding XP for kingdom events.
Under Apply Kingdom EXP text it says: "If the kingdom experienced a random event, it receives 30 XP."
Under Resolving Kingdom events it says: "The kingdom’s event modifier is the value you apply to the kingdom’s level to determine the event’s level, for the purposes of determining XP rewards (so if a 1st-level kingdom is experiencing a +1 event, that event’s level is 2).
Under Gaining Kingdom Experience it says: "A kingdom earns 30 XP for experiencing a random event or more for a Story event, regardless of the event’s outcome"
It's not clear whether "Experiencing" means completing the event (regardless of the outcome) or simply having it trigger.
So the main question is:
Are there two points at which you get XP for a Kingdom Event (when it triggers, and when it completes), or is there just one (when you "experience" it)?
Other Questions follow from the answer to that one.
If there is only one point (when you "experience" an event) then how much XP is awarded for Random events? Is it 30XP or based on the level of the event?
If you get Kingdom XP for both "experiencing" and "completing (regardless of outcome)" an event then:
For Non-Continuous Random Events it seems like you'd get 30 XP for experiencing it and XP based on the event level for completion.
For Continuous Random events do you get the XP for "experiencing" it every turn the event goes on?
For Story events the Completion Bonus is always specified. How much XP do you get for "experiencing" it if the event itself doesn't specify? Seems like it could be either None or 30. I think using the rules for Random events if a Story Event doesn't specify makes the most sense.
I'd love to hear others' thoughts though!
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That other thread is useful for way to make the Kingdom level faster but isn't helpful at all to anyone who actually wants to try and use Events for XP as written.
James Jacob's post basically said just don't worry about Kingdom XP and have the Kingdom match the Party's level.
Creative Director
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Yeah. If you're struggling with a group who doesn't want to take multiple turns and several in-game months or years to level up their Kingdom, and are eager to play the core experience of the Adventure Path (which is the PCs adventuring), then having the kingdom automatically level up whenever the PCs gain a level is a great option. Think of it as a milestone system for the kingdom—just that the milestones are when the PCs level up (whether or not the PCs gain XP traditionally or gain levels via milestones themselves) rather than specific story beats.
Pathfinder is, at its core, a game about a small group of characters who work together to triumph in adventures. That's the expectation for most players. Some will enjoy having more ways to explore storytelling, but the core expectation will remain the same.
If your group is eager and excited to do lots of Kingdom Turns, great! If they're not, but they still enjoy the Kingdom Building stuff, then using a milestone system for the kingdom is a good solution. As is simply adjusting the amount of XP a Kingdom needs to level up—try reducing it to 100 kingdom XP per level, perhaps.
Since kingdoms have a maximum level set by the party's current level, having the kingdom level up more quickly isn't gonna hurt things.
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Creative Director
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That other thread is useful for way to make the Kingdom level faster but isn't helpful at all to anyone who actually wants to try and use Events for XP as written.
James Jacob's post basically said just don't worry about Kingdom XP and have the Kingdom match the Party's level.
You are not wrong, so you have a choice:
1. Wait for an official errata to come out, and hope the Kingdom XP are better explained and shown.
2. Use the ideas in the other Thread and try and mitigate the problems in the Kingdom Building rules until your Kingdom gets to 3rd or 4th Level. This may make the Event XP not being properly shown less of a problem.
3. Make up your own Kingdom XP for each event!
Not a great choice, I know!
We traditionally don't issue errata for adventures or Adventure Paths, so option 1 above isn't, at this point, one I would recommend.
Options 2 and 3 are great ones, though! Especially since every table will have different levels of interest in kingdom building and management.
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Creative Director
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I am not sure what James Jacobs was saying here! To me it seems to be saying that the Kingdom in the Background option is the best one for most people? Completely ignoring Kingdom XP in favour of PC XP doesn't solve the problems in the Kingdom Building rules themselves, and takes PC's back to the Empire in an Afternoon scenario.
I am hoping this answer was just James Jacobs answering Forum posts at the end of a long and difficult week!
The answer was me trying to address a specific concern fro a specific type of group—one who doesn't want to spend a lot of time in a game session doing things that aren't adventuring with their characters.
For some groups, ignoring the Kingdom stuff IS the right call. Doesn't make that group better or worse.
That said, the past several years have certainly had no shortage of long and difficult weeks.
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Creative Director
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And the intent for "experiencing an event" is that you gain XP when it happens. So, if you defeat the event immediately or if it takes a dozen Kingdom turns to finish it... you gain the same XP regardless.
That said, the longer a continuous event goes on, the more likely it is that the players will look to solving it in some other way, or perhaps even getting in there to solve it themselves in exploration or encounter mode. In which case, granting additional XP (both kingdom and player) is great!
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James thanks for all the responses!
The 2e version of Kingmakers only exists because of you and all your efforts.
There are a lot of us who are super excited to run this and we can't thank you enough.
On Specifics thanks for clarifying about "experiencing" an event.
One last question then.
For random events do they just grant 30 XP or should the reward be modified by the Event Level?
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Creative Director
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Thanks for the comments, James, and if I have seemed to be too critical, I apologise. I really want to run this and it to be a success, as I have played and loved the 1st Edition version.
One final question, If the Kingdom levels up at the same time as the PC's level up, then presumably the Kingdom starts at 4th Level, which is where the PC's will be at the beginning of Book 4?
That's an option. My suggestion, though, woudl be to at least give the PCs a chance to play a turn or two out at levels 1, 2, and 3 before proceeding with the adventures at the start of chapter 4. Even if that's a "Play one turn per level" sort of thing.
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Creative Director
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James thanks for all the responses!
The 2e version of Kingmakers only exists because of you and all your efforts.
There are a lot of us who are super excited to run this and we can't thank you enough.
On Specifics thanks for clarifying about "experiencing" an event.
One last question then.
For random events do they just grant 30 XP or should the reward be modified by the Event Level?
As written, they grant 30 XP regardless of Event Level.
That said, I think it's a really good idea to change that to 40 XP, so that the XP granted matches table 10–2 on page 489 of the Core Rulebook. That way you can easilly adjust XP up and down depending on the level of the event. I wish I had a time machine to go back and change this in print to this mechanic, honestly... or at the very least had been able to do a preview of the kingdom rules for folks to look over and give feedback on before we went to print, but there was already far too much going on at Paizo and in the world in 2021 when this would have been an option so that hope died on the vine.
But anyway. Changing the event XP rewards to match table 10–2 is a great fix and should also help get those kingdoms more XP.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
James thanks for all the responses!
The 2e version of Kingmakers only exists because of you and all your efforts.
There are a lot of us who are super excited to run this and we can't thank you enough.
On Specifics thanks for clarifying about "experiencing" an event.
One last question then.
For random events do they just grant 30 XP or should the reward be modified by the Event Level?
As written, they grant 30 XP regardless of Event Level.
That said, I think it's a really good idea to change that to 40 XP, so that the XP granted matches table 10–2 on page 489 of the Core Rulebook. That way you can easilly adjust XP up and down depending on the level of the event. I wish I had a time machine to go back and change this in print to this mechanic, honestly... or at the very least had been able to do a preview of the kingdom rules for folks to look over and give feedback on before we went to print, but there was already far too much going on at Paizo and in the world in 2021 when this would have been an option so that hope died on the vine.
But anyway. Changing the event XP rewards to match table 10–2 is a great fix and should also help get those kingdoms more XP.
This question came up because "Kingdom Event Descriptions" on pg. 553-554 says (emphasis added):
The kingdom's event modifier is the value you apply to the kingdom's level to determine the event's level, for the purposes of determining XP rewards (so if a 1st-level kingdom is experiencing a +1 event, that event's level is 2).
Which seems to say that kingdom events are either supposed to give XP in addition to the flat 30 XP they normally give, or that the 30 XP is supposed to be modified up/down based off the kingdom event's event modifier.
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Creative Director
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James thanks for all the responses!
The 2e version of Kingmakers only exists because of you and all your efforts.
There are a lot of us who are super excited to run this and we can't thank you enough.
On Specifics thanks for clarifying about "experiencing" an event.
One last question then.
For random events do they just grant 30 XP or should the reward be modified by the Event Level?
As written, they grant 30 XP regardless of Event Level.
That said, I think it's a really good idea to change that to 40 XP, so that the XP granted matches table 10–2 on page 489 of the Core Rulebook. That way you can easilly adjust XP up and down depending on the level of the event. I wish I had a time machine to go back and change this in print to this mechanic, honestly... or at the very least had been able to do a preview of the kingdom rules for folks to look over and give feedback on before we went to print, but there was already far too much going on at Paizo and in the world in 2021 when this would have been an option so that hope died on the vine.
But anyway. Changing the event XP rewards to match table 10–2 is a great fix and should also help get those kingdoms more XP.
This question came up because "Kingdom Event Descriptions" on pg. 553-554 says (emphasis added):
The kingdom's event modifier is the value you apply to the kingdom's level to determine the event's level, for the purposes of determining XP rewards (so if a 1st-level kingdom is experiencing a +1 event, that event's level is 2).Which seems to say that kingdom events are either supposed to give XP in addition to the flat 30 XP they normally give, or that the 30 XP is supposed to be modified up/down based off the kingdom event's event modifier.
Considering how much I liked the idea and felt that it's how I would develop the rules today, I suspect that bit of text is evidence that I intended to make it match table 10–2 but never actually followed through on that from an original draft that just had static XP awards.
Sorry about the confusion there.
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Creative Director
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As written, (Kingdom Events) grant 30 XP regardless of Event Level. That said, I think it's a really good idea to change that to 40 XP, so that the XP granted matches table 10–2 on page 489 of the Core Rulebook. That way you can easily adjust XP up and down depending on the level of the event.
(snip)
Changing the event XP rewards to match table 10–2 is a great fix and should also help get those kingdoms more XP.
Is this an "official errata"? (And, if so, should it be added into the corresponding thread for errata?)
Thanks,
Franklin
It's not "official errata" until it gets posted as such and/or is reprinted, but it's the original intent I had for the system, and I'm the lead developer for the project, so I guess take that for what it's worth? ;-)
Clarifications here on posts like this on these boards are not considered "Official Errata" because they quickly get lost and aren't catalogued, but if/when we publish errata for Kingmaker, this'll be something I push for. But to manage expectations... we've NEVER published "official errata" for an adventure.
So event XP should match the 10-2 xp table. Cool.