MY group is currently playing Pathfinder 1e, the Ruins of Azlant adventure path (possible spoiler ahead so don't read if you are playing it). I am playing a Rogue and have been maxing out perception and disable device. I also took the rogue talent "Trap Spotter"
When we were entering the tower at the end of module 1 we encountered a trap. Here is the description from the module the DM sent me:
Trap: A devious and complicated trap defends this room from intruders who attempt to enter or pass through this chamber. While this trap can be detected in advance, it is difficult to disable without being subjected to its attack as the creature attempting to disable it must move through the room to the clockwork panel to do so. The trap can be programmed to ignore certain particular creatures. Once XXXXX brought the skum here to watch over its dominated prisoners, it set this trap to ignore skum and itself. The trap’s visual trigger uses an arcane eye effect, so invisibility and illusion effects that make creatures appear to be something other than typical humanoids can fool this magic sensor. Once an applicable creature enters the room, two crossbow mechanisms spring out from the walls above the doors in the east and west walls. These weapons are mounted on gyroscopic platforms that allow them to target any position in the room, including straight down. Clockwork mechanisms automatically draw the weapons and spring-loaded bolts into position to fire once each round. A creature with the key (currently in the possession of Urlgryber in area P9) can either wind down the trap— which renders it inactive—or reprogram it. A successful DC 20 Disable Device check is required to do this without the key. In addition, a small slot near the double doors allows the key’s bearer to bypass the trap. AUTO-TARGETING CROSSBOW TRAP CR 4 XP 1,200 Type mechanical; Perception DC 20; Disable Device DC 20 EFFECTS Trigger visual (arcane eye); Reset automatic; Bypass hidden lock (Perception DC 25; Disable Device DC 25) Effect Atk +15 ranged (1d8+1/×3); multiple targets (up to two different targets in a 15-ft.-square area), can attack a single target twice, but only if there is a single target available; otherwise, it must attack different targets
I did search for traps with a total perception score of 26 but because of the "magic eye" aspect I somehow didn't detect it even though rogues can disable magical traps. I was subject to attack as soon as I opened the door, and the trap was activated. My viewpoint was that I should be allowed to, one detect it even if it was a magical trap and two disable it with an appropriate roll. The DM figures since I am playing a goblin, so I'm only about 3' tall, I wouldn't be able to disable it since the mechanisms were 10' up on the walls. I suggested that I could throw something, gravel, coins, a dagger etc. to jam the mechanisms or at the very least 1 one mechanisms each round. The DM disagreed saying the physics didn't support it. So, I would have to cross the room and take either 1d4 rounds or 2d4 rounds to disable it as it was a "devious and complicated" trap. I survived and eventually disabled it with another good roll.
My belief is that I should have been able to disable it without being used as a human (or goblin) pin cushion. Whether I disabled the sensor, jammed the mechanical parts of the trap or some combination of both. I shouldn't have to figure out the physics or engineering of the trap. The character is the expert not me and physics shouldn't be the deciding factor in a fantasy world where dragons and magic exist.
I showed him posts from this site that basically said what I am saying but he feels that they are just other players stating their opinions. Can someone tell me if any Paizo employees' answer these rules questions?
He is new to DM'ing, is a decent guy and tries to be fair but he wants to see the rules in the core rulebook spell it out. Any assistance would be welcome (especially from a paizo employee).
Thank you in advance for any and all assistance.
Trap spotter should have given you a chance to spot the trap when you were within 10 feet. By the description there is a there is a bypass mechanism by the double doors. If the double doors are how, you entered the room, you should be able to use that to disable the trap. Since this hidden lock was designed to allow someone with the key to shut it down it could not have been 10 feet of the ground. If you entered through another door, then you are out of luck and will have to take a few rounds of attacks before you can disable it.
Just because you spot a trap does not mean you can disable it. To disable to a trap takes the listed time and you need access to the trap or at least the trigger. The standard rouge cannot disarm a trap at range. An Arcane Trickster can do so because of ranged legerdemain. There is also a 1st tier mythic ability ranged disable that allows you to use a throw weapon to disable a trap as a standard action. So, unless you are an Arcane Trickster or a mythic character you cannot disarm a trap at range.
Arcane Eye can also be fooled. There are a couple of things that could be done even in you need to enter the room. As the description said you could use invisibility, or Illusion to fool it. The trap is also mechanical so has no way to distinguish things like if something is a living creature. Throwing in object into the room should cause the crossbows to fire on the object thrown. Since it only fires twice a round throwing two decent size objects in could give you a window of opportunity. Maybe have someone in the party tossing in object to give you a shot would work. If they keep tossing in object it would probably be a random determination on which items were attacked.
|
Everything that Mysterious Stranger said is correct.
Checking the map it seems improbable that your party was able to enter from a different access than the double door.
The writer did go to great lengths to make it a complicated trap that requires specific steps to disable it.
So:
1) after opening the doors and before entering the room an active Perception check of 26 should have allowed you to see the ports from which the two hidden crossbows deploy. The same check should have allowed you to see the clockwork panel on the northern wall (on the other side of the room).
As the bypass mechanism is on the inner side near the door you should have entered the room to see it, but that triggers the trap. At least, that is how I read "a small slot near the double doors", as it is part of the description of the room (100% cover from outside the doors, your perception don't bypass walls).
That means that a key holder that is not programmed to be not targeted by the trap will be fired upon at least once. Not a great safety feature for the key holder but reasonable enough in Pathfinder.
After entering the room, you would have been entitled to a passive trap spot check to notice the bypass mechanism.
2) While the Disable device ability doesn't require you to specify how you disable the trap, you need to have access to the mechanism, In this specific scenario you had access two easy to reach mechanisms that can disable the trap:
a) the bypass slot;
b) the clockwork control panel:
Both should be within accessible range even for a goblin. Not easily accessible, as Azlant are humans so a panel built to be easily accessible for them will be above your head, but still within reach. At worst the GM could have applied a circumstance penalty because you are short, but then he should apply a circumstance bonus in other circumstances.
3) The crossbows were outside your reach so, they couldn't be disabled without special abilities. Or a PC with a reach weapon smashing them.
4) It is an extreme difficulty trap that requires 2d4 rounds and a DC 25 check to disarm, it falls under disarm a complex trap, cleverly sabotage a clockwork device. Throwing random objects at the crossbows doesn't do that. Even less spending a single round for each crossbow.
You would someone to jam a PC crossbow by throwing some dirt?
5) Noticing the arcane eye has a higher difficulty, but that is not relevant to the ability to notice the trap or the panel and bypass slot.
Disabling the arcane eye alone is even more difficult and it still requires you to reach its location.
Your GM was mostly correct.
Actually, if the trap can be programed to ignore creatures, it could also be programed to ignore someone showing the key. You would have to be obviously presenting the key, not just having possession of the key. So, you could walk up holding the key like a cleric turning undead. This also assumes that the key is distinctive enough to be easily identified.
But if the character does not have or is not presenting the key this is a moot point.
1. So I don't have access to the map, so take that into account
2. you should have been able to detect the trap as a whole, as you beat it's DC, just not the magical eye part as magical traps have a higher DV
3. you should have been able to detect the bypass at the double doors as you beat it's DC
4. it sounds like the bypass at the double doors is outside of and beyond the area of the trap and meant as a way to bypass the strap without setting it off.
5. whoever wrote this trap is a jerk and needs to be flogged. There should always be a way to disable a trap without setting it off and if I am wrong about the double doors, then this one is on the verge of being one that can't be disarmed.
6. That being said, having the the big tough armored fighter go set off the trap is always a viable option. sometimes it's just easier to take your licks and then heal him.
Note the Arcane Eye doesn't change the DC, (maybe your GM misran that or) distance does increase the DC and you were far enough away to take at least a -2 to just notice the eye part that triggered on you. Also note that being able to disable magical traps doesn't change whether or not you can see the magical trap (anyone can see magical traps). Trapfinder still gives you half your level to
Good luck on getting any Paizo employee (not counting moderation team) to take a look at anything with 1e in the name.
|
|
1. So I don't have access to the map, so take that into account
2. you should have been able to detect the trap as a whole, as you beat it's DC, just not the magical eye part as magical traps have a higher DV
3. you should have been able to detect the bypass at the double doors as you beat it's DC
4. it sounds like the bypass at the double doors is outside of and beyond the area of the trap and meant as a way to bypass the strap without setting it off.
5. whoever wrote this trap is a jerk and needs to be flogged. There should always be a way to disable a trap without setting it off and if I am wrong about the double doors, then this one is on the verge of being one that can't be disarmed.
6. That being said, having the the big tough armored fighter go set off the trap is always a viable option. sometimes it's just easier to take your licks and then heal him.
2. Based on the map, either he checked from outside, and then the bypass wasn't visible, or he checked from inside the room, and then the trap was already triggered.
5. Totally disagree.
Why there should be a way to disarm a trap without setting it off? The goal of a trap is to hurt people that try to access the area without the proper credentials.
The area has a way to allow access for those with clearance (they are programmed in the control panel) and to allow access to those without clearance but that are escorted by the key holder (the key holder activates the bypass).
The whole purpose of a bypass is to allow someone who knows about it and has the required item to ignore the trap. If the bypass cannot be reached without triggering the trap it kind of defeats the purpose of having it. Nothing in the rules prevent this from being how the tap was setup. But if it was setup this way the bypass is not really functional and the character who created the trap is likely a complete idiot. The designer who created this situation is not much brighter.
The trap’s visual trigger uses an arcane eye effect, so invisibility and illusion effects that make creatures appear to be something other than typical humanoids can fool this magic sensor. Once an applicable creature enters the room, two crossbow mechanisms spring out from the walls above the doors in the east and west walls.
The bolded section makes it clear the trigger is keyed off a humanoid entering the room. It specifies that invisibility or illusions can bypass it, but there is no reason a mundane solution would not work. All the goblin needs to do is to put a box over himself, so he no longer appears humanoid. Then he can walk in the room and the trap will not be triggered.
|
|
How the trap work depends on the level of paranoia against safety against accidents the builder did want. People programmed in the control system can enter, so there is a decent level of safety against accidents.
The bypass function is to allow the passage of new people without reprogramming the control system, but only when they are accompanied by people that have access, it is not meant to allow people without access to enter and reprogram the system.
|
|
Diego Rossi, who has seen the map, suggests the key slot for the bypass is INSIDE the room, meaning anyone not programmed as "safe" against the trap will be attacked by that trap while attempting to bypass it. What sense does that make? Why would a way to not get attacked by a trap be placed in such a way that it guarantees you're attacked by the trap?
Because the one with the key to activate the bypass normally is someone that is allowed on the premise, so, for him, it is safe to enter it.
I get that people feel that the PCs should get a safe way to disable the trap, but I don't feel that it is a "right" of the PCs.
If the PCs had identified the trap from outside the room, testing how it works is easy: get some animal or a summoned creature and make it enter the room. Based on the above description it will be triggered by any creature that isn't "XXXXX" or skums.
After the crossbows have been triggered and have fired, the PCs will have a round to break them (it requires a weapon with reach) or move out of the threatened area: "up to two different targets in a 15-ft.-square area", so apparently the crossbows fire only within 15' of their position.
BTW: in the building where I work the keyboard to disarm the intruder alarm is right below the siren and well within the sensor area. Sure, the alarm doesn't kill anyone (it "only" damage your hearing). But in Pathfinder a level 3 character can survive multiple crossbow bolts.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
5. Totally disagree.
Why there should be a way to disarm a trap without setting it off? The goal of a trap is to hurt people that try to access the area without the proper credentials.
Then it's not a trap, it's simply damage to the party. If that's what you want a GM, then just tell them they lose X Hp, but if you go through any kind of description etc, then there should be a way to bypass it with a dice roll. Any GM who thinks otherwise is a jerk.
|
5. Totally disagree.
Why there should be a way to disarm a trap without setting it off? The goal of a trap is to hurt people that try to access the area without the proper credentials.Then it's not a trap, it's simply damage to the party. If that's what you want a GM, then just tell them they lose X Hp, but if you go through any kind of description etc, then there should be a way to bypass it with a dice roll. Any GM who thinks otherwise is a jerk.
Depends on the group/playstyle I've always felt a well designed trap should be as hard to disable as possible in order to keep people away. Now that is not the same as SPOTTING the trap. You can combine the two with a party spotting the trap and being informed it functions as you said as a hazard with damage because they wont be able to disable it without taking damage.
|
|
5. Totally disagree.
Why there should be a way to disarm a trap without setting it off? The goal of a trap is to hurt people that try to access the area without the proper credentials.Then it's not a trap, it's simply damage to the party. If that's what you want a GM, then just tell them they lose X Hp, but if you go through any kind of description etc, then there should be a way to bypass it with a dice roll. Any GM who thinks otherwise is a jerk.
1) It is possible to notice the trap without setting it off.
2) As I explained above, after you notice the trap it is not hard to force it to activate and avoid the damage.
So, your argument boils down to "it should be extremely easy to avoid it."
We can use the same argument for monsters: "it's simply damage to the party, just tell them they lose X Hp, there is no need to play the encounter".
Just saying, a CR=LVL+1 challenge *should* rob around a third of their resources. And it seems to have done so via damage.
|
|
How would these PCs test the trap? Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster? Non-Humanoid creatures fool the sensor and don't trigger the trap, so only the alternate Sum. Monster, a bloody skeleton, fits the bill.
The trap is triggered by creatures. It allows XXX and skums to pass. That is why the treap mentions that "illusion effects that make creatures appear to be something other than typical humanoids can fool this magic sensor". Skums are Monstrous Humanoid, so not "typical humanoids".
Normal wildlife will be enough.If they DO know that it's a Visual trigger, the rogue in the OP might think they can Stealth through the area if they have Concealment. Now the party needs to spend another resource in the form of a smokestick or Obscuring Mist spell or even a Darkness spell, but this may or may not work. Barring that, an Arcane caster with access to L2 spells might have Invisibilty to put on the rogue to get them into the room to disable the trap while unseen.
Sadly, the trap doesn't cite the perception of the eye. Arcane eys says "It sees exactly as you would see if you were there", so it should have a perception score and it should be possible to use stealth against it.
Without a perception score, only total concealment works.DC 20 to disable this trap, based on a 20 Pt buy, is probably +10 - +12 for the rogue at this point. That's a better than 50% chance to succeed, but not a guarantee. If they fail the Disable check, the rest of the party isn't going to know until they enter the room.
Without the distraction of the crossbow quarrels, the rogue can take 10. The part about "(up to two different targets in a 15-ft.-square area)" isn't really clear, so it is not clear if the control panel is within or outside the area targeted by the crossbows. To be sure we can say it is within the area. The best way, if you have someone with a reach weapon or the ability to hit a location above the 10' mark, is to trigger the trap and then destroy the crossbows. They have a hardness of 5 and 5 hp. It will require a bladed weapon, but most reach weapons have a blade.
The crossbows are objects, so hitting them is automatic if you spend a full round action. Otherwise, the AC is 10+0 (Medium sized)-5 (dex)-2 (inanimate)=3Unless the attacker rolls a 1 he will hit.
Where do you get that a crossbow is a Tiny object?
"A hand-held crossbow was 60 to 65 centimeters wide and the stock was around 45 centimeters long.", so a light crossbow is about 24"x18", at worst a small sized object.
But even with your calculation, the AC is at worst 5, and any melee combatant that doesn't roll a 1 will hit it.
The crossbows fire on different targets if they are present, so the guy smashing them probably will get 1-2 hits, and one or more other guys another a total of 1-2 hits.
A single channel will remove about half of the damage suffered by the group.
It is one of the late APs for Pathfinder 1, so the assumption is that the party is fairly powerful, possibly with classes that aren't the core Classes, so it is normal that it will be harder than a typical trap.
|
|
"fool this magic sensor" meaning... monsters other than typical humanoids TRIGGER the trap, or FOOL it into not triggering? By the way it's worded, I thought the trap wouldn't trigger unless typical humanoids enter the area. If that's the case, summoning a dire rat won't make the crossbows fire.The trap is triggered by creatures. It allows XXX and skums to pass. That is why the treap mention that "illusion effects that make creatures appear to be something other than typical humanoids can fool this magic sensor". Skums are Monstrous Humanoid, so not "typical humanoids".
How would these PCs test the trap? Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster? Non-Humanoid creatures fool the sensor and don't trigger the trap, so only the alternate Sum. Monster, a bloody skeleton, fits the bill.
It cites several times "creatures" in its targets, so I assume that it targets creatures. Then it cites the way to foil it "illusion effects that make creatures appear to be something other than typical humanoids can fool this magic sensor". As the Skums are Monstrous humanoids I assume you need an illusion that makes you appear as Monstrous humanoids or as XXXX.
Otherwise, there is no need to remove the skums from the targeting list and any PC that isn't a humanoid can enter the room.You know, any of the native outsiders, dampyrs, etc.
These guys have a goblin in the party, so probably aren't limited to the Core rules and have checked the Internet for suggested builds and other stuff.
I added a lot of stuff to my post above while you were commenting.
TL, DL: it isn't an easy trap, but well within the ability of the party to handle.
If you somehow knew about the arcane eye, then you could just break its line of sight. You could just mage hand a blanket in front of it. But it’s really hard to know a stationary invisible effect is there. Maybe a detect magic would tell you there is divination effect in that area. But that’d be a leap of logic.
Seems like the trap is intended to go off at least once.
Just noticed the trap couldn’t even see in the dark. Was the room magically lit?
Melkiador brings up a good point. All you really need to do is to block the line of sight of the arcane eye. The character did make the perception roll to spot the hidden lock. That was also high enough to spot the trap. Since this is a trap not a spell (the duration of the spell would have run out a long time ago) he should be aware of the nature of the trap. If the character or party can figure out some way to block the line of sight to the hidden lock, he can attempt to disable it. A silent image would work, but it could also be done by mundane means. Maybe using a blanket to provide cover?
Maybe using a blanket to provide cover?
Do you mean holding a blanket out in front of you as you enter the room? I feel that would get some table variation, but personally I would want to reward that kind of creativity.
Also, is it possible the PCs could have interrogated some of the skum by this point? It feels like the PCs are supposed to have an idea that impersonating skum could work. If interrogation is supposed to happen, that'd be a nice bonus for those parties that don't just murder hobo anything in front of them.
|
|
Darkness will certainly work, but it will not be enough. It will give concealment but not total concealment. It will be enough to allow the use of stealth, so we return to "What is the Perception bonus of the Arcane Eye?"
Not something that a novice GM can guess easily.
My opinion is that, as it mimics normal sight from an Azlanti spellcaster, it should have something like +10 or +12 (4th level spell cast by a 7th level caster, with perception as a class bonus thanks to a trait and possibly a stat bonus). It can be as low as +7.
We have no idea where the Arcane eye is placed. As a guess, I would say on the ceiling in the center of the room. It seems the most logical location if it is a single sensor.
A blanket alone probably wouldn't be enough as the hands of the guy holding it up would be visible. A blanket with some frame holding it up so that no part of the body is visible would work.
Also, is it possible the PCs could have interrogated some of the skum by this point? It feels like the PCs are supposed to have an idea that impersonating skum could work. If interrogation is supposed to happen, that'd be a nice bonus for those parties that don't just murder hobo anything in front of them.
Once an applicable creature enters the room, two crossbow mechanisms spring out from the walls above the doors in the east and west walls.
...
I was subject to attack as soon as I opened the door, and the trap was activated.
That's maybe the biggest mistake the GM made. You can stand outside of the room fine. Stepping into the room is what causes the trap to go off.
So, your argument boils down to "it should be extremely easy to avoid it."
We can use the same argument for monsters: "it's simply damage to the party, just tell them they lose X Hp, there is no need to play the encounter".
A Monster can be defeated by rolling the dice, the trap should also be able to be defeated by rolling the dice. There should be no situation where the trap is set off by a disarm attempt when the dice roll beats the DC of the trap.
|
|
A Monster can be defeated by rolling the dice, the trap should also be able to be defeated by rolling the dice. There should be no situation where the trap is set off by a disarm attempt when the dice roll beats the DC of the trap.
So, your argument boils down to "it should be extremely easy to avoid it."
We can use the same argument for monsters: "it's simply damage to the party, just tell them they lose X Hp, there is no need to play the encounter".
He beat the DC for noticing the trap. Disabling it is a separate roll and requires at least 2d4 rounds.
|
|
The trap has a CR of 4. Let's confront it with a tough CR 4 monster: a leech swarm.
A 3rd level party without the right classes or equipment that deal AoE damage can beat it simply by rolling dices?
They can beat it without spending a lot of resources?
The reply to both is no unless they are very creative and have a lot of time.
|
|
The leech swarm can easily be in a pond full of water lilies in the middle of a garden (put there as a trap by the undead boss).
"A world of hurt" translates into "having to spend resources to cure the damage received".
Killing a swarm will require spending resources to destroy it or to cure the damage suffered.
Spending resources one way or the other isn't that different.
As pointed out several times, there are ways to lessen the damage received, maybe even avoid it completely.
We lack a lot of information on what was done in the game, so there is a lot of theory crafting and people speaking out of their hurt or fun from different GM playstyles.
Baldies says: "as soon as I opened the door". If he opened the door while staying outside he shouldn't have been fired upon.
Noticing the magical sensor is a bit more difficult than noticing the mechanical part of the trap.
Visual: This trigger for magic traps works like an actual eye, springing the trap whenever it “sees” something.
The eye would have a DC of 29 to be noticed. It is hard to beat that at 3rd level.
Standing outside the rogue would have noticed the sally ports of the crossbows and the control panel.
If it is on the outside, he would have noticed the bypass control.
If the bypass is on the outside, the trap becomes a simple speed bump. "I take 20 and hack the bypass." GM "After 100 rounds you have disabled it."
If the rogue can hit DC 25 on its check by taking 10, disabling it would require only 2d4 rounds.
And, just to point it out:
The Core Rulebook doesn’t specify what area a PC can actively search, but for a given Perception check it should be no larger than a 10-foot-by-10-foot area, and often a smaller space if that area is cluttered.
Wow! Thank you all for your input.
The rogue in this case has the rogue talent trap spotter. That means he gets a perception roll just for as soon as he gets within 10 feet of the trap without having to search.
|
|
The rogue in this case has the rogue talent trap spotter. That means he gets a perception roll just for as soon as he gets within 10 feet of the trap without having to search.
That requires entering the room.
The control panel is 30' away.
It is not clear where is the magic eye, but it requires a 29 to be detected.