I have become smitten with building a character that specializes in using the Double-Chained Kama weapon. I am kind of stuck in knowing how best to optimize this, mainly because I am feat starved. I would love to be a Dwarf for how I envision the character, but I am pretty sure Human with their bonus feat is the only way forward.
- Weapon Focus
- Ascetic Style & Form
- Combat Reflexes
- Dirty Fighting
- Improved Trip
- Greater Trip
- Vicious Stomp
- Power Attack
- Lunge
This is the best I have come up with so far, and I would really appreciate some advice on how to fit this all together
OUTLINE
Race: TBD
Class: Unchained Monk
Archetype: Windstep Master
Stats
Str:
Dex:
Cons:
Int:
Wis:
Cha:
ATTRIBUTE INCREASES
4,8,12,16,20 - STR
TRAITS
Snowstride (Region)
(______)
FEATS
Level 1 - Monk - Human - Power Attack
Level 1 - Monk - Level - Weapon Focus (Double-Chained Kama)
Level 1 - Monk - Bonus - Dodge
Level 2 - Monk - Bonus - Combat Reflexes
Level 3 - Monk - Level - Ascetic Style
Level 5 - Monk - Level - Ascetic Form
Level 6 - Monk - Bonus - Improved Trip
Level 7 - Monk - Level - Dirty Fighting
Level 9 - Monk - Level - Greater Trip
Level 10 - Monk - Bonus -
Level 11 - Monk - Level - Vicious Stomp
Level 13 - Monk - Level -
Level 14 - Monk - Bonus -
Level 15 - Monk - Level -
Level 17 - Monk - Level -
Level 18 - Monk - Bonus -
Level 19 - Monk - Level -
Style Strikes
5 - Flying Kick
9 - Leg Sweep
13 -
17 -
Ki Powers
4 - Wind Step*
6 - Barkskin
8 - Elemental Fury: Cold
10 - Ki Leech
12 -
14 -
16 -
18 -
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I'd say your spending substantial resources on being able to pounce (flying kick) with your kama, but you probably don't have to. Wielding a reach weapon and having lunge means you can usually full attack anyway, and don't need flying kick. This means you can drop Weapon Focus, Ascetic Style, and Ascetic Form. And I'm not sure why you'd want Dodge; so overall this makes the dwarf a viable option.
The one thing missing from this build is an option to enlarge yourself, because enlarge + reach weapon + combat reflexes + tripping is a very good combo. I recommend dipping one level in cleric/druid/inquisitor with the Plant(Growth) domain, or maybe taking some levels in Eldritch Scion Magus with the Abyssal bloodline.
Oh, and if you're a dwarf, be sure to take Glory of Old and Steel Soul! HTH.
I'd say your spending substantial resources on being able to pounce (flying kick) with your kama, but you probably don't have to. Wielding a reach weapon and having lunge means you can usually full attack anyway, and don't need flying kick. This means you can drop Weapon Focus, Ascetic Style, and Ascetic Form.
I want the Ascetic line to apply Monk Damage to my attacks, as well as Ki Pool, some Ki Powers, and Style Strikes (Not just Flying Kick). Leg Sweep may be better earlier on though
And I'm not sure why you'd want Dodge; so overall this makes the dwarf a viable option.
There are no other good options for the first two bonus feats; maybe deflect arrows?
Oh, and if you're a dwarf, be sure to take Glory of Old and Steel Soul! HTH.
Glory of Old, unfortunately, had to be sidelined for Snowstride, as they both are Regional traits
You'll probably run out of AoOs as a STR based monk, especially if you manage to get enlarged.
A more "martial" alternative is to start with one level in UnMonk and then enter Brawler. Less mystical arts but more feats. You'll still go unarmored and depend on the superior UnMonk's Flurry over Brawler's Flurry.
AFAIK there are some arguments about if Ascetic Style (/form) actually allows you to perform Style Strikes since the strikes specify body parts to be used. I.e. even if your weapon counts as "an unarmed strike" it doesn't count as "an elbow" and so on.
So Ascetic Style isn't a high priority in that case.
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I want the Ascetic line to apply Monk Damage to my attacks,
This part, at least, seems not a very good use of feats. The DC Kama normally deals 1d6; the Ascetic Strike feat will, at levels 12 thru 16, increase your damage by +2 on average.
At those levels, that's simply not a lot compared to what you get from high strength, party buffs, and/or magical items. I suggest looking into different feats.
There are no other good options for the first two bonus feats; maybe deflect arrows?
Check to mix with other archetypes maybe? I'm pretty sure you can get Power Attack or a style feat for a monk bonus feat somewhere.
AFAIK there are some arguments about if Ascetic Style (/form) actually allows you to perform Style Strikes since the strikes specify body parts to be used. I.e. even if your weapon counts as "an unarmed strike" it doesn't count as "an elbow" and so on.
So Ascetic Style isn't a high priority in that case.
Yeah I dismiss that immediately to be honest because
You can use the chosen melee weapon with any class ability that can be used with an unarmed strike, such as an unchained monk’s style strike ability.
I want the Ascetic line to apply Monk Damage to my attacks,This part, at least, seems not a very good use of feats. The DC Kama normally deals 1d6; the Ascetic Strike feat will, at levels 12 thru 16, increase your damage by +2 on average.
At those levels, that's simply not a lot compared to what you get from high strength, party buffs, and/or magical items. I suggest looking into different feats.
Style is a prerequisite for Ascetic Form. That said I am thinking of dropping Windstep Master for a standard unchained monk to get Stunning Fist back, to then try and use Medusa's Wrath better, and I will of course want Stunning Fist on my D-C Kama
There are no other good options for the first two bonus feats; maybe deflect arrows?Check to mix with other archetypes maybe? I'm pretty sure you can get Power Attack or a style feat for a monk bonus feat somewhere.
Nope there isn't any for Unchained. Invested Regent sacrifices one of the early bonus feats for stuff later on, and that is about it.
Yeah I dismiss that immediately to be honest because
You can use the chosen melee weapon with any class ability that can be used with an unarmed strike, such as an unchained monk’s style strike ability.
Wew, I wonder why that was even a discussion if it's that cut and dry.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Style is a prerequisite for Ascetic Form.This part, at least, seems not a very good use of feats. The DC Kama normally deals 1d6; the Ascetic Strike feat will, at levels 12 thru 16, increase your damage by +2 on average.
At those levels, that's simply not a lot compared to what you get from high strength, party buffs, and/or magical items. I suggest looking into different feats.
Yes, but Ascetic Strike (the third feat in the line) is the one that lets you use monk unarmed damage for your chosen weapon. And that one is not so good.
Even without the Ascetic feats, you could still attack with your reach weapon, 5'-step in, then attack with a punch (plus any style strike); or conversely, Flying Kick to an enemy, 5'-step back, then attack with your reach weapon. Note that Flying Kick specifically places you adjacent to your target enemy, anyway.
I am thinking of dropping Windstep Master for a standard unchained monk to get Stunning Fist back, to then try and use Medusa's Wrath better, and I will of course want Stunning Fist on my D-C Kama
It depends a bit on the GM's interpretation, but Windstep Master basically grants Air Walk, I'd think thrice about giving that up. Also, if the opponent fails the save against Stunning Fist and you're making a full attack, they're in a very bad spot with or without Medusa's Wrath. MW is nice if you can trigger it from a party member's effect, but the Stunning Fist interaction is usually a "win more".
Yes, but Ascetic Strike (the third feat in the line) is the one that lets you use monk unarmed damage for your chosen weapon.
Not for Monks, because we have explicit official ruling that "the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as" "effects that augment an unarmed strike".
or conversely, Flying Kick to an enemy, 5'-step back, then attack with your reach weapon.
You can't 5-ft-step after (or before) movement. And yeah, that makes Flying Kick and reach weapon incompatible.
There aren't any proper rules on unusual double weapons, but going by the description, a Double-Chained Kama can be used as a non-reach weapon, but the trip property is tied to reach. It's also questionable whether a GM lets you two-hand it in non-reach, I probably wouldn't.
Overall, apart from early levels, the Double-Chained Kama is a horrible weapon for a Monk, because it's highly anti-synergetic.
I'd say your spending substantial resources on being able to pounce (flying kick) with your kama, but you probably don't have to.
It's not just Flying Kick, it's also the bonus attack from Ki Pool, as that's normally unarmed only.
AFAIK there are some arguments about if Ascetic Style (/form) actually allows you to perform Style Strikes since the strikes specify body parts to be used. I.e. even if your weapon counts as "an unarmed strike" it doesn't count as "an elbow" and so on.
It's generally presumed that options that allow you to use Style Strikes with a weapon bypass the body part requirement, because otherwise, almost none of them would work (11 out of 15 wouldn't work). When Ascetic Form was written, all Style Strikes had a specified body part, and thus none would (have) work(ed) with the feat without ignoring the body part requirement, despite the feat explicitly listing Style Strikes as abilities that work.
You may want take a look at a chained monk with a similar concept from 2017 for ideas:
Half-elf monk (ki mystic/master of many styles/qinggong monk) 10
16 Str (+2 race), 15 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 14 Wis, 8 Cha (20-point buy); +1 Wis at 4th and 8th
15 Str (+2 race), 15 Dex, 13 Con, 11 Int, 14 Wis, 7 Cha (15-point buy); +1 Wis at 4th, +1 Str at 8th
Ancestral Arms (Double-Chained Kama) alternate racial trait
Favored Class Bonus +1 hp or skill rank 1st and 2nd, +1/4 ki point 3rd+
1st- Ascetic Style (Double-Chained Kama)*, Two-Weapon Fighting
2nd- Elemental Fist*
3rd- Dragon Style
4th- barkskin in place of Slow Fall
5th- hydraulic push in place of High Jump; Dragon Ferocity
6th- Ascetic Form*
7th- cloak of winds in place of Wholeness of Body; Marid Style
9th- Combat Style Master
10th- Ascetic Strike*
For more fun, take Dragon Roar at 11th.
Note, the central concept is to be able to use both Ascetic Style and Elemental Fist (or either Dragon Style or Marid Style) at the same time via the master of many styles archetype. Marid Style extends the reach of the double-chained kama by another 5 ft, which is pretty nifty. The drawback for using the chained monk vs. the unchained version is the BAB will be somewhat lower. However, the chained version leans more into ki and magical effects.
*-bonus feat that can ignore prerequisites
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Yes, but Ascetic Strike (the third feat in the line) is the one that lets you use monk unarmed damage for your chosen weapon.Not for Monks, because we have explicit official ruling that "the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as" "effects that augment an unarmed strike".
I note that you're linking to Archive.org and that this text is not present in the current FAQ. Looks like the ruling you're talking about has been revoked.
or conversely, Flying Kick to an enemy, 5'-step back, then attack with your reach weapon.You can't 5-ft-step after (or before) movement.
Good point. I thought it was that you can't 5-step after a move action, but turns out you can't do it after any movement.
I note that you're linking to Archive.org and that this text is not present in the current FAQ. Looks like the ruling you're talking about has been revoked.
It was removed because the language of the feat was changed per errata to remove the sentence the question was about. That erratum actually confirms the FAQ, as it's an indication that Paizo couldn't remove the effect they didn't like via interpretation of the text, and thus had to outright remove it.
FAQs can be changed, of course, but that would require a newer FAQ. Quitely removing things tos weep them under the rug is not how paizo handles such things, as you can see in e.g. the free actions per round FAQ. They didn't like what the FAQ resulted in, and thus changed it, but they outright stated that.
The drawback for using the chained monk vs. the unchained version is the BAB will be somewhat lower.
The main drawback is that you're giving up Flurry of Blows, the Ki Pool bonus attack (MoMS retains it, but can't use it), and Style Strikes (which can be another bonus attack). At 11th level an UnMonk has up to seven attacks, your cMonk build has three. The bonus damage from Dragon Style and Elemental Fist doesn't near make up for that.
Meanwhile, unMonk can have Barkskin, Hydraulic Push, Cloak of Winds, and the ability to have party members reroll saves, too, although most of those gained a bit later.
Note, the central concept is to be able to use both Ascetic Style and Elemental Fist [...] at the same time via the master of many styles archetype.
That works even without MoMS, you know? I think you mean that you want Dragon Ferocity to make the bonus damage from Elemental Fist not totally pathetic, and want MoMS to not waste the two Dragon Style feats.
There aren't any proper rules on unusual double weapons, but going by the description, a Double-Chained Kama can be used as a non-reach weapon, but the trip property is tied to reach.
The Single Kama weapon retains the trip function so they would still have that. They are however light weapons so you couldn't two=hand wield them
Ah, good catch.
Why the double-chained kama, though? It is mechanics, or flavor, that draws you towards that weapon?
Ah, good catch.
Why the double-chained kama, though? It is mechanics, or flavor, that draws you towards that weapon?
It is flavour. When I saw the image of the Double-Chained Kama I immediately saw the similarity to mountain climbers Ice Axes, so I am trying to build a Mountain Climber Character that uses his "Ice Axes". Originally I thought of playing as a Brawler but that seemed like a lot of work trying to get them to work with the Brawler Class features.