Thaumaturge: Spiked Shield Implement with Implement's Empowerment

[Decimas]

The question is if shields with attachments i.e. boss/spike can be weapon implements and still benefit from Implement's Empowerment? Implement's Empowerment has the restriction "You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit." We know that a shield with a shield boss/spike is a one-handed weapon.

The shield boss/spike has the Attached property, whose first sentence is "An attached weapon must be combined with another piece of gear to be used." Seemingly these two pieces of gear are "combined" to make one piece of gear, as opposed to wielding a shield AND a shield spike/boss. Does that combined piece of gear pass the restriction on Implement's Empowerment, or is this class feature unusable with this type of one-handed weapon?

[Cordell Kintner]

Attached weapons aren't held when you are wielding them. "Held" and "Wielded" are two different states, and they aren't mutually exclusive. It's rare, but you can wield a weapon without holding it, as evidence by Attached weapons. You don't "hold" Spiked Wheels, nor a Bayonette when it's on a gun. In the same vein, you wouldn't "hold" a shield boss or spikes. If you did "hold" the wheelchair, it would be impossible for a wheelchair bound Thaumaturge to play at all.

Secondly, attaching a weapon to an item does not make that item a weapon. Reinforcing the wheels of a wheelchair doesn't make the entire thing a weapon. This then results in Empowerment failing, since you're holding something that's not a Weapon/Implement/Esoterica.

Even if it's intended to be able to use a shield, the rules are explicitly not allowing that, just like how they don't allow Bows to work. If you want a Shield Thaumaturge, you will have to wait for an errata.

[Decimas]

We know Doubling Rings work with a Shield Boss as displayed by the level 5 Valeros pregen. Doubling Rings states, "The replication functions only if you wear both rings, and it ends as soon as you cease wielding a melee weapon in one of your hands." So Valeros is wielding a weapon in the shield hand but he is not holding a weapon in that hand?

[Themetricsystem]

Decimas wrote:

We know Doubling Rings work with a Shield Boss as displayed by the level 5 Valeros pregen. Doubling Rings states, "The replication functions only if you wear both rings, and it ends as soon as you cease wielding a melee weapon in one of your hands." So Valeros is wielding a weapon in the shield hand but he is not holding a weapon in that hand?

Correct, holding is very much mechanically distinct from wielding and the DR only cares about if the weapon is wielded therefore they work with the Shield Attachements.

[Cordell Kintner]

Decimas wrote:

We know Doubling Rings work with a Shield Boss as displayed by the level 5 Valeros pregen. Doubling Rings states, "The replication functions only if you wear both rings, and it ends as soon as you cease wielding a melee weapon in one of your hands." So Valeros is wielding a weapon in the shield hand but he is not holding a weapon in that hand?

You are again implying wielding is equal to holding. If that is true then it would be impossible to be a Thaumaturge if you're in a wheelchair with a wheel weapon attachment, as you're always wielding those weapons while in the chair. This is obviously not intended.

[Decimas]

Wheelchairs have many rules that are specific to them. As the focus of this thread is shields, lets keep the discussion to just that.

Page 277 of CRB states "You can also buy and attach a shield boss or shield spikes to a shield to make it a more practical weapon. These can be found on Table 6–7. These work like other weapons and can even be etched with runes."

The Hands portion of the Base Weapons entry states, "In addition, some abilities require you to wield a weapon in two hands. You meet this requirement while holding the weapon in two hands, even if it doesn’t require two hands or have the two-hand trait."

Everstand Stance states: "You brace your shield with both hands, enhancing its potential for both offense and defense. When in this stance, you wield the shield with both hands. When wielding a shield this way, increase the weapon damage die of the shield’s boss or spikes by one step, and increase the shield’s Hardness by 2 when using the Shield Block reaction."

If attaching a shield boss/spike makes a shield a "more practical weapon", then it sounds like a shield with a boss/spike on it is a weapon. The second paragraph also implies that to wield a weapon with a hands entry (shield boss has a hands entry), that you have to hold it with the prerequisite number of hands. Everstand reinforces that the user wields and holds the shield with two hands, and that the damage from its boss/spikes are increased. Still seems like the game intends for a spiked/bossed shield to be wielded and held as a single one handed weapon or two hands if using Everstand Stance.

[Cordell Kintner]

Decimas wrote:

Wheelchairs have many rules that are specific to them. As the focus of this thread is shields, lets keep the discussion to just that.

This discussion is about Attached Weapons, not Shields. You're making the argument that an attached weapon makes the entire thing a weapon, which is blatantly wrong. If this was about shields then you would still be wrong because a shield is not a weapon nor is it on the list of things you can hold and still get Empowered.

Decimas wrote:

attaching a shield boss/spike makes a shield a "more practical weapon", then it sounds like a shield with a boss/spike on it is a weapon. The second paragraph also implies that to wield a weapon with a hands entry (shield boss has a hands entry), that you have to hold it with the prerequisite number of hands. Everstand reinforces that the user wields and holds the shield with two hands, and that the damage from its boss/spikes are increased. Still seems like the game intends for a spiked/bossed shield to be wielded and held as a single one handed weapon or two hands if using Everstand Stance.

You can wield more than just a weapon. Just because flavor text is saying something is a weapon doesn't make it a weapon in the game's rules. Weapon Improviser constantly refers to random objects, such as mugs and bottles, as weapons. That doesn't mean I can go add runes to them, nor would they count for being a weapon for any Thaumaturge abilities.

You're conflating flavor and explanatory text for rules. Shields aren't weapons, and adding an attached weapon to them doesn't make them a weapon.

[Gortle]

Maybe, maybe not. It will depend on your GM. I can definitely see your line of argument. There are lots of exceptions to the what is a weapon problem. Lots of contradictory expressions too. But I'd be keeping clear of it as a GM, and sticking with traditional one handed weapons.

You can effectively use a weapon with the parry trait as a weapon so you have AC options if you want. An exquisite sword cane I think is the best.
What did you hope to do with a spiked shield implement?

[Decimas]

The build wants to raise shield/shield block, utilize Implement's Empowerment in melee, and leave a hand open for Medicine checks.

[Dubious Scholar]

The best case for allowing the shield is probably this: "A shield can be used as a martial weapon for attacks, using the statistics listed for a shield bash on Table 6–7: Melee Weapons (page 280). The shield bash is an option only for shields that weren’t designed to be used as weapons." (CRB p.277)

On the other hand, they're not actually weapons - they can't get runes on them. This is more of them not being improvised even when used to attack, I guess? So sure, your GM can allow it, talk to them. But as written I don't think it's a great case, as silly as it seems.

I think there's a great case that they should be allowed to work with Thaumaturge that way, but until then you may be better served finding a way to pick up the Shield cantrip.

[Tarpeius]

Use a buckler, which is actually a targe in that it's strapped to your arm rather than held.