Conditions like Frightened, Stunned X, Sickened, and even persistent damage. Also given that the spells have no other effect that needs a duration.
I want to know what qualifies for those level 20 spellcaster feats and now the Psychic's Unleash Psyche that care about spells with no duration. I thought it would be as simple as checking if the spell has a listed duration or not but certain spells keep me skeptical.
Fear says its duration varies but similar spells that cause Frightened like Weird, Blistering Invective and Agonizing Despair have no listed duration.
Daze can cause Stunned 1 and has a listed duration. Ray of Frost can cause a 1 round speed penalty but have no listed duration.
Persistent damage spells I've noticed to be consistent as to not having a duration listed at least.
The only thing I can point to is the rules for Spell Duration - most notably this line:
Some spells have effects that remain even after the spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical. For instance, a spell that creates a loud sound and has no duration might deafen someone for a time, even permanently. This deafness couldn’t be counteracted because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured by other magic, such as restore senses).
Which causes all sorts of problems when trying to interpret rules interactions for things like Golem Antimagic or other things that have different rules for if the effect is magical or not.
But when determining if a spell has a duration or not, that would be the best thing to look at.
What is probably what is meant by a "Duration: varies" entry: the spell has a duration, and that duration ends when all of the spells effects end. And those effects remain magical since the spell is still in effect.
However, a spell that causes lingering effects but doesn't have a duration entry would not have a duration and the lingering effects that it causes are not magical.
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Conditions like Frightened, Stunned X, Sickened, and even persistent damage. Also given that the spells have no other effect that needs a duration.
I want to know what qualifies for those level 20 spellcaster feats and now the Psychic's Unleash Psyche that care about spells with no duration. I thought it would be as simple as checking if the spell has a listed duration or not but certain spells keep me skeptical.
Fear says its duration varies but similar spells that cause Frightened like Weird, Blistering Invective and Agonizing Despair have no listed duration.
Daze can cause Stunned 1 and has a listed duration. Ray of Frost can cause a 1 round speed penalty but have no listed duration.
Persistent damage spells I've noticed to be consistent as to not having a duration listed at least.
You are confusing spell duration and effect durations. When Psychic's Unleash refers to spells duration they aren't the effect duraction they are only the duraction decribed in spell duration area, except for "Duration: varies" as already explained by breithauptclan. Here is the rule:
Some spells have effects that remain even after the spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical. For instance, a spell that creates a loud sound and has no duration might deafen someone for a time, even permanently. This deafness couldn’t be counteracted because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured by other magic, such as restore senses).
So it's all a matter of whether the effects are magical or not? That clears up a lot of these for me.
Fear, for example, inflicts a magical Frightened condition, and therefore can be dispelled, while those other spells inflict a non-magical Frightened condition?
Similarly, Daze causes a magical Stunned condition while Ray of Frost's speed penalty is simply an effect of the spell?
Of course, these would then also determine what is valid for the Conduit feats and Unleash Psyche, correct?
So it's all a matter of whether the effects are magical or not? That clears up a lot of these for me.
Sort of. The rule is actually that if the spell's duration ends, then any effects from it that are still in play are not magical.
But reversing that should be fairly accurate, I suppose.
The better indicator is the 'Duration' line in the spell. If it mentions a number of rounds, a number of minutes, until the end of someone's turn, something similar to one of those, Sustained, or Varies - then the spell has a duration. Otherwise it doesn't.
That's a simple rule to follow, but the duration line doesn't change how the self-regulating condition work do they?
With Fear where the duration isn't specific, there shouldn't be a contradiction. However for Daze, what does 1 round duration mean in relation to Stunned 1?
However for Daze, what does 1 round duration mean in relation to Stunned 1?
About the only thing that I can see that it means is that the Stunned 1 effect is still magical.
The spell has a duration of 1 round.
The damage is done instantly.
Stunned 1 will be removed before the spell's duration ends.
Yeah, I don't know why it was written that way - other than that abilities that key off of spells with no duration were written way after the Daze spell was.
If Daze had no duration, the spell would work almost identically. The difference being that the Stunned 1 condition would not be magical.
Using Daze as the example is a bit of a problem because Daze still wouldn't work with Unlimited Potential since it isn't a spell slot spell. A spell slot spell that is worded similarly would work with Unlimited Potential after removing the duration though.
Using Daze as the example is a bit of a problem because Daze still wouldn't work with Unlimited Potential since it isn't a spell slot spell. A spell slot spell that is worded similarly would work with Unlimited Potential after removing the duration though.
It invalidates it for Unleash Psyche which is interesting to say the least.
That 1 round duration is peculiar no matter which way you look at it, huh? I even considered there was another effect it was related to that I just looked past.
It invalidates it for Unleash Psyche which is interesting to say the least.
??
...
Ah, the damage boost effect. Which does indeed only apply to spells that don't have a duration. So Daze technically wouldn't qualify.
Yes, it does seem really strange.
I would think that this is unintended. It seems to be meant to include spells that only deal damage once.
So it RAI shoudn't work with Biting Words, but probably should with Daze.
That 1 round duration is peculiar no matter which way you look at it, huh? I even considered there was another effect it was related to that I just looked past.
Yes. I expect that this is because it was written in a time when such things didn't really matter as much.
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tbh Daze's duration feels like a typo, because it doesn't actually do anything (other than preventing a psychic from benefitting from unleash with it).
... But it's also survived three rounds of errata so maybe not.
... But it's also survived three rounds of errata so maybe not.
It's not the only thing that has done so.
Golem Antimagic is in a book that hasn't been errata'd yet, isn't it? They've only done Bestiary 2 and it's in 1.
OK. Sure.
That changes the point I'm making somehow?
There are a few other psychic related ambiguities. Astral Rain and Forbidden Thought both read like they have durations but they don't have a duration listed so they qualify for Unleash Psyche's bonus.
Forbidden thought has only one instance of damage to be fair but Astral Rain technically has no limit and the damage triggers can occur at different times within a round.